Evidence of meeting #32 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:35 a.m.
President, Institute for Research on Public Policy
That was a statement and I don't have a comment, but there is an issue here that I want to come back to, something Mr. Lake raised about whether it was appropriate for people from StatsCan to harass.
It is appropriate for Statistics Canada to enforce section 31 of the Statistics Act. Parliament has spoken about this. The law is on the books. The problem I think Mr. Masse is pointing to is that 2011 will be here very soon.
10:35 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers
I just want to comment on Mr. Masse's comment. The government is acting as though it's the opposition. It's criticizing the policies of the Government of Canada, which it has the ability to change.
As well, there's a good deal of misinformation that has been identified this morning by members of the government. Information about Métis status is not on the short form.
It was claimed by Mr. Lake that most of the examples that we and various witnesses provided today of the value of the long form are examples from the short form. That's absolutely false. The short form has only eight questions, or is it 10 now?
10:35 a.m.
A voice
Yes, with the questions on official languages.
10:35 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers
It's very minimal.
Finally, to be clear on the burden, one out of five Canadians fills it out and it's every five years. You fill it out for your household, and there are 2.5 people in your household. When you do the math, that means the average Canadian would expect to have to fill out a long form once every 67.5 years, and it takes 30 minutes.
10:35 a.m.
Chair, National Statistics Council
Thank you.
One of the elements that this portion of the discussions highlights for me is that it's important to look to solutions. There are very important things at stake in having the information that has been provided by the long-form census, but equally there have been issues raised such as the burden on some farmers—and I would add, not only through the census of agriculture, but farmers often get additional surveys that they need to fill out. We need to examine that.
Everyone seems to be fully in agreement that jail is inappropriate, and I can tell you from an empirical basis that censuses run just fine internationally without it. There are lots of elements that would say to me to protect the vital information that is generated now by having a mandatory alternative to the census and get really serious about examining in detail respondent burden for agriculture, ways of ensuring the ethnic communities are there, and looking at the penalties and processes. That can be done well before the next census.
10:35 a.m.
Conservative
10:35 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Turk, I have a few questions for you.
In 2006, Statistics Canada asked how much a household spent annually on water. Are you aware of that? That was a mandatory question, of course.
10:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers
I'm not aware of that.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Okay, but it is one of the mandatory questions. Someone who didn't want to answer that question would be threatened with jail time or a fine.
10:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers
No, somebody who didn't want to answer that question wouldn't answer it. That person still might complete the whole form.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
But they would be threatened with a $500 fine. It's a $500 fine under the Statistics Act for any question you don't answer, right?
10:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers
I'd be surprised if there was a single Canadian who was fined $500 for not answering a question about how much he or she spent on water.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
I said they would be threatened with a fine. I don't know whether they were fined or not.
Obviously, household spending on water is important information.
10:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers
It is, actually.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Annual household spending on shelter obviously is important. Are you aware that was a mandatory question as well?
That's a “yes”. Okay.
What about annual household spending on transportation? Would you agree that's also important information?
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Okay.
And annual household information on food is important as well.
10:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers
I'd point out that the cabinet of the Government of Canada thought it was important, too, because it was in the questionnaire.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
No, questions on food and transportation weren't actually in the long form.
You seem surprised at that. Then you would probably include those as mandatory questions in the long form.
10:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers
Mr. Lake, the problem every census is that there are many more questions we would like to ask and governments and community groups need in order to plan, and there has to be a trade-off as to what can be included to reach a balance in terms of the appropriate length relative to the appropriate information desired. There are many, many questions that many of us would like answered, that governments at the federal, provincial, and local level and community agencies would feel valuable and could use, that aren't included. The problem is not that we ask superfluous questions; the problem is that there are a lot of questions we can't ask.
My colleague, Michael Ornstein, who works with these data all the time, could elaborate if you'd like.
10:40 a.m.
Member, Research Advisory Committee, Canadian Association of University Teachers
Probably you think it's important to study poverty. The census is used to study poverty and to study differentials in poverty between racialized groups. It's used to study poverty of first nations people.
It turns out that one of the reasons people are poor is because their housing is expensive. So one of the reasonable things to do in the census is to ask people about their income and the cost of their housing.
One of the problems with the cost of their housing is that you can't ask a single question and measure it accurately. You need a series of questions, and that's the reason.
So the reason that the question about water is in there is because it's an element of housing cost, housing cost is an important element of poverty, and we use the census to study poverty because it's an important aspect of—
