Industry Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I think what Mr. Cotton is saying, and the spirit of what you've put forward in this amendment, is that the measurement isn't what the bill is trying to address. It's trying to address the examination of the measurement.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

We're fine with that.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

You used the word “measurement“ in your amendment, but I think they're saying it's more accurate to use “examination”.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

That's fine.

I think we agreed, Mr. Chair, that measurement could be substituted.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Lake's original point is that he thinks putting “inspection” in brackets may cause some problems, so let's just stick with the singular word “examination.” Are you okay with that?

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Plus the word “inspection”. Would that be in brackets? Is that what you were suggesting?

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I guess what I'm saying is that I have a little bit of concern with that. Again, you talk about words being important. For us to introduce two different words at that point, where everywhere else in the act one word is used, and that word is “examination”, for us to use “examination” and then put “inspection” in brackets doesn't make sense.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Chair, could I seek the advice of Measurement Canada?

In Appendix 5: “Inspection Types Defined - Accredited Organization - Inspection Types: Type A1 - Initial Factory Inspection by an Accredited Organization; Type A2 - Initial Field Inspection by an Accredited Organization; Type A3 - Subsequent”--

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Where's that coming from? That's not the language contained right in the act.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

These are the regulations. The language of the regulations has to be consistent with the act. Inspections are part of this.

Mr. Cotton, you're smiling. I'm only going by what you have here.

[Carl Cotton]

I've been told to shut up.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I didn't tell you that.

[Carl Cotton]

What you're looking at there are not regulations.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Cotton, you can speak. I will let you.

[Carl Cotton]

Those are not regulations. You're looking at an implementation manual for our STARS data entry process.

I mean, we still call inspections “inspections”. We have been advised throughout the legislative process that “examination” is the more appropriate word in the current context. We know what you mean by “inspection,” but “examination” is the more appropriate word.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

The current bill has the word “inspection” in it. Are you suggesting that there should have been an amendment anyway that you would have proposed that the wording be changed? If not, why didn't you do it?

[Carl Cotton]

No, we're not suggesting that, and “examination” has been introduced.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

So it's not an issue here. Okay.

Mr. Chair, I will work with Mr. Lake on this. I think you have the word you're looking for, “examination”. But I still think the word “inspection” should be in brackets for greater certainty.

I don't want someone interpreting this to mean something else, especially when we're involving a whole new line of oversight, which is going to require absolute clarity and precision, not only on behalf of the retailer but also the government. And the language should be consistent with what currently exists in the act.

Mr. Cotton is wondering whether we're going to make a change anyway.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I have Mr. Masse on the speakers list. I know that you want to retort to that, Mr. Lake.

Mr. Masse. Is it germane to this point?

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes, it is.

I'm just rethinking as we're going through here. If you're going to examine something, that's a different level of expectation from inspecting. If you're inspecting, I would argue that there's going to be some repercussion that would be different from just an examination. If you fail an examination, that's different from an inspection. I think there is going to be legal precedent for setting penalties and fines.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

Mr. Lake.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I'll just make the point here that this is a language issue more than a political issue. My suggestion would be.... I understand what we're trying to accomplish with the idea of putting “examination” and “inspection” in brackets, but we know that's definitely not the way the wording is throughout the rest of the bill.

It's been suggested that the wording, to be consistent, should be “examination”, but surely, when this comes before the Senate committee, we have time before then for the experts and legal officials to look to make sure that the wording is consistent.

If there is a change that's needed, that change will be able to be made in an amendment at the Senate committee stage. It surely will be, because it's not a politically contentious wording change. It's just language, and we need to make sure that it's right, to be consistent legally. Surely that will be able to happen at the Senate committee stage if we've made an error here.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Cotton.

[Carl Cotton]

I just want to point out the amendment on page 30. Proposed section 29 talks about “examination”, “inspection”, and “examined”. It's on page 30 of Bill C-14. It's in fine print buried at the back. It says:

The Act is amended by replacing “inspected” and “inspection” with “examined” and “examination”, respectively, in the following provisions:

That would make it uniform, if I can use that word, throughout.