Evidence of meeting #56 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Okay.
I wanted to continue on the basic research question that we were talking about. You're saying that your firms really don't employ folks who are doing basic research.
5:05 p.m.
President, Association of Consulting Engineering Companies - Canada
No, not pure research. We have to support them with our overhead and our markup.
There are exceptions; some firms have successfully developed patents because there was a particularly unique project. Most of the innovation takes place in the context of working for private clients, though, who are prepared to make that investment because they have the luxury of being able to say that they can defer seeing any return on the investment for four or five years. In the reality of government, that's a much trickier proposition.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Then as with the pharmaceutical industry, a lot of those companies are actually getting a lot of their new ideas from peer-reviewed academic—
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Is that something—and maybe I'll go to Ms. Walden in a minute—that your firms do as well? Do they read the journals and say that they see something new they can build into their company, or is there a gap between what's being written and what's being implemented?
5:05 p.m.
President, Association of Consulting Engineering Companies - Canada
Those firms that have the opportunity to do so will do so. In a cost-competitive market, it's a little more challenging. You have to add time to take time. You have to have money to make money. It's a little bit of that. Again, it's another one of these vicious circles.
Some firms do it extremely well. For some firms, it would be very challenging, because they have to open up that margin before they can free up that staff time and that investment in human resources.
5:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Research Partnerships Programs Directorate, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada
There may be a big difference there between, say, consulting engineering firms and the engineering firms such as Pratt and Whitney or Bombardier, where a lot of in-house research is done. It's the same with IBM. In fact, part of the reason they justify their presence in the country is the fact that they have this access to research, and they're doing a lot of research here.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Dr. Marceau, I just want to jump onto what you were saying, and what I believe Mr. Gamble said as well.
I come from Sudbury. We have a lot of engineers in Sudbury, specific to mining. You were talking about the decline or what we're seeing, as Mr. Lake was saying, in terms of Chinese engineers.
What we're seeing in Sudbury is that we're losing our engineers quite quickly, not only to foreign countries right now—like Mongolia, where they're bringing in Sudbury engineers all over the place—but even within our own country. They're going to Saskatchewan, to Alberta, to Newfoundland. I wouldn't say we have a big problem, but we're starting to see the loss of engineers and the slowdown of mining.
Has there been any thought about this? Are there any discussions within the engineering associations about what we can do to even support our own resource development here with engineers?
5:10 p.m.
President, Canadian Academy of Engineering
What I would say is that in mining the whole issue of the primary transformation of the resource—getting it off the ground—is a huge area, a huge issue, and it has been for at least a generation. Mining has lost interest among young people for a long time. We're talking 25 to 30 years.
Universities have partnered with companies to try to stimulate enrolment in mining. When I lived in Montreal, I recall École Polytechnique and McGill University getting together to consolidate their mining engineering faculty and activities. I think this has happened elsewhere in the country.
What I'd simply say is that it's the mirror image of what we've been saying and what Mr. Gamble said a few minutes ago. There are a lot of areas that could attract young people if only we could make young people aware of those areas.
We cannot solve this problem instantaneously. When engineers have opportunities with greater salaries and possibly a career, and they can see down their runway a little more than three to five years and can see that the job could become a career, then they'll go where there is a career rather than a job.
I'm not saying that's not what is offered in Sudbury. I'm sure there are careers in Sudbury, but there is a perception that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
I would simply say that to solve this generational issue of more mining engineers and more electric power engineers, resource engineers, petroleum engineers, oil sands engineers, and nuclear engineers, we need to think in terms of 25 years. We have to invest time and go into schools and expose young people to engineers.
A primary school or a high school will often have visits to museums and to artistic and cultural centres, but rarely to a plant in an industrial setting. Rarely do you see an engineer as a high school teacher or as a primary school teacher. There are some; there are just not enough.
There are not any incentives for engineers, with their qualifications, to change in mid-career and go into teaching. They're not recognized because the essential competency is that of teaching, but what one brings as a teacher isn't recognized. If engineers were recognized for their engineering background and went to high schools, the students would be exposed to people other than science graduates and bachelor of arts graduates. Exposure to the kinds of thinking and experience from engineers is essential, but we have to open our minds and get into those schools and show students what opportunities there are. Mining is a great opportunity, but they don't know it.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
We're way over time, but I have a little bit of flexibility.
Madam Walden, do you have a brief comment you want to make in this round?
5:15 p.m.
Vice-President, Research Partnerships Programs Directorate, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada
I have just a comment.
Mining is a special case because of the cyclical nature of the industry. It goes through boom and bust. If you come back to the theme of what attracts students, it's jobs and excitement. The Canada Mining Innovation Council is looking at this because they have, on the excitement side, a lack of reputation. It's still viewed from a distance as a dirty kind of not very attractive business, and on the job side as being cyclical, so you can be employed or not employed very quickly.
The other thing is that for women, this is not an attractive field because, generally speaking, the mines are not located in areas.... If you work in Fort McMurray or some of the other mines, they're not areas that are necessarily attractive to women. They tend to prefer working in city areas.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Walden. I worked at the Canadian Welding Bureau, and they have similar issues in trying to attract young people into welding. It's a great career as well, but it's very difficult.
I understand Madam Gallant and Mr. Menegakis want to share their time.
Madam Gallant, did you have a question, and then you'll share with Mr. Menegakis?
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
The issue of nuclear engineers was raised in the last session. What is the current demand for nuclear engineers and what do you see it being for the next 10 years? Dr. Marceau, you mentioned that.
5:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Academy of Engineering
There is a significant demand for nuclear engineers in Ontario, where there will be a sustained presence of nuclear generating capacity for a long time to come. The nuclear power plants need to be maintained. They need to be overhauled to extend their lifespan. The minute you need to keep those plants running, you need nuclear engineers to plan over 10 to 20 years how they're going to do the maintenance, upgrading, and the transformation that will give them another 10 to 20 years.
Usually they do it in blocks of about 25 years, so there is a need to replace the people who are being phased out, and that need is currently met in two ways. In the early 2000s, a program was created jointly with NSERC and the entire nuclear industry, primarily centred in Ontario. It's called the University Network of Excellence in Nuclear Engineering. This program created a series of chairs that were financed very generously, in part by industry and in part by NSERC. It aimed at creating the succession planning for nuclear engineers at the master's and doctoral level.
It was recognized that to train the bachelors, first you needed to get the experts at the doctoral and master's level who could contribute both to the industry and to educating the future generation of engineers.
We are now at the point where a few universities—very few—including McMaster, Queen's, U of T, and UOIT, where I am located, have the capacity to teach nuclear engineering to young graduates of the bachelor level. At UOIT we have the only stand-alone nuclear engineering program in the country.
What has been done is meeting the supply.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you.
I want to finish my thought. All of you are leaders in the engineering field in very responsible positions, so if a young student has just graduated and says he can't get a job, would you point him to a particular industry or even an area or a province in Canada? What advice would you give him?
5:15 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Engineers Canada
The first question would be what discipline of engineering and what area within that discipline the student is interested in. Having that information in hand, then yes, there are probably parts of the country or particular industries that we can point them to, as well as mentors or people to talk to in that area.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON
What if they come to you before they start their studies and say they're really interested in engineering? Where do you see the future? Where are their best chances of employment once they graduate? What would you say then?
February 7th, 2013 / 5:15 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Engineers Canada
I would still be asking where their interest is, because it doesn't matter where the employment is. If you end up in an area you're not really enjoying, how much are you going to be able to...?
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Engineers Canada
A lot of demand has been mentioned in a number of areas in Canada, areas where we're not producing enough engineers. Mining and nuclear were mentioned. Certainly the nuclear medicine side of things, which wasn't mentioned, is really growing, as are the biomedical and nanotechnology areas.