Industry Committee on Feb. 7th, 2013

[Dr. Richard Marceau]

I would like to add that when there is an imbalance between the number of students and the number of placements, what happens is that students will accept co-op placements without pay, and that completely usurps the whole fundamental concept of co-op programs.

Co-op programs are superior programs. They help bootstrap the quality of education in all the engineering faculties they are in. It would be helpful if there were tax incentives for companies to be able to accept co-op program students by generating those placements they don't normally have.

The other part of the issue is that it's not easy to take a student who's going to be there for four months. It's actually quite difficult. It's better for them to be there for 8 months or 12 months. An incentive for companies to create a long-term relationship with co-op students and pay them would strengthen the co-op system itself and strengthen the education that students get. They'd become better engineers when they graduated.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Go ahead, Ms. Walden, very briefly.

[Janet Walden]

Our experience reflects what Mr. Marceau just said, but there are different ways of getting internships. You can also have collaborative projects between university researchers and industry. Who does all of the work? It's the students, primarily. In that way the students, over a longer-term period of sometimes two to three years—and this is generally at the graduate level—have experienced working with that company or with a group of companies on different research projects that are very much related to the business needs of that particular company. They get that experience in different ways. They are not always kicking them out; sometimes it's on an ongoing basis. They have that interaction.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Madam Walden and Ms. Gallant.

Now we will go on to Madame LeBlanc for five minutes.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

I am quite curious about something. I think co-op programs are a win-win situation. On one hand, you've got coaching and on the other, you've got young graduates who can't find jobs for five years, because employers are asking for that much experience. So I think co-op is a win-win.

What I don't understand, though, Mr. Marceau, is why co-op students aren't paid.

[Richard Marceau]

When the number of students doesn't match up with the number of placements available, some universities encourage their students to accept unpaid co-op placements. When I was dean of the engineering faculty at Sherbrooke university, I would not allow my students to do unpaid placements. I would tell industry representatives that they couldn't have my students' services if they didn't want to pay them.

One year, we had a real discrepancy between the number of placements and the number of students. As dean, I did something highly unusual. I had to invest money in order to create jobs within the faculty for those students who had not been placed. Situations like that happen. It goes in cycles, so there are gaps when it can happen. It all depends on the year.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

You mentioned four-month placements. That's rather short. Is it possible to have longer placements during the school year, say five or six months? That way, students could gain experience and get back to learning theory afterwards.

[Claude Laguë]

Most universities with co-op programs offer a certain degree of flexibility. It depends on the needs of industry and the wishes of students. It is possible to extend the usual four-month placement to eight months. Generally, placements are done in four-month increments to correspond with terms. We have to use four-month increments so that students can work co-op into their program.

Some universities offer co-op placements to students only once over the course of the program, and those placements can last 8 or 12 months. When I was dean of the University of Saskatchewan's College of Engineering, students would do 16-month placements. But they could do so only after completing their third year.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I realize that finding companies that will take on co-op students is a challenge. But as I see it, the company benefits by having an employee it is already familiar with. It knows whether that person is a good fit. If the person isn't a good fit, steps can be taken. It already has that experience with the person.

Do you have trouble getting smaller companies to take on co-op students and pay them?

[Claude Laguë]

That can be challenging, but it depends on the sector. Take new technologies and the high-tech sector, for instance. A lot of those companies really depend on innovation and human capital in the start-up phase. Despite being small, these companies are often eager to take on co-op students. The thinking is that the students will benefit the company and improve its ability to adapt to a rapidly changing environment.

Placing co-op students is usually tougher with small companies operating in somewhat more traditional sectors, where the demand for innovation isn't as high. The fact of the matter is that a lot of these businesses don't necessarily have the capacity to supervise students. You need people on staff who can train and support the students, and these business don't necessarily have that.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the institution or university has expectations when it comes to co-op programs and placements. It expects that students will work in an environment in which they will be trained. It expects the work environment to be conducive to learning. That is something we check. As a university, we make sure that companies wishing to take on co-op students can offer that kind of environment.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Do you offer any kind of support to small businesses?

[Claude Laguë]

Yes.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Coming back to percentages, we talked about credential recognition, particularly as it concerns newcomers who've earned their degrees in other countries. What's the percentage of those whose credentials have been recognized—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Madame LeBlanc, your time is up.

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I'm out of time already?

I'll have to come back to it another time, then. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Warawa, you have five minutes.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the witnesses for being here. It is very interesting.

I have questions on the incentive programs. I am sure you're familiar with the Red Seal program for trade apprentices. I think it was introduced by the government around 2007. It provides a tax incentive for the first couple of years of an apprenticeship and encourages companies to hire these apprentices. That is not where I wanted to go in my questioning, but are you looking to recommend something similar to that program, or any tax incentives?

[Marie Carter]

I think that would be something to consider, or perhaps something structured in a similar way.

I know the Red Seal program has been quite successful for the trades. Any sort of incentive that will get industry to hire new grads and that can assure them that the person is going to be able to carry out the work and get going would be useful.

[Dr. Richard Marceau]

This is a very interesting topic, because there is a way to incent companies to hire engineers.

Many small and medium-sized companies are offering products and services that do not have a single engineer. Very often they are very innovative and entrepreneurially oriented. They have something unique, but they do not have an engineer on staff to maintain or help with their production. Getting that first engineer through the door is the critical path to hiring more engineers in industry. Once they see the value that an engineer brings to their company and their value-added proposition, then they create the pathway to hiring more, but the key is getting that first one into those SMEs.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I want to change the subject slightly.

There was a comment that there's a lack of interest among first nations and women and that generally some of the disciplines would be more popular than others. I want to ask about the importance of our natural resources.

About three years ago, I believe, the environment committee paid a visit to the oil sands. No matter what political party was represented, the common comment was it was very different from what we expected, and engineering played a major part in that. The appearance of the oil sands has changed dramatically, even within the last three years. How the tailings ponds are now being handled has dramatically changed, as well as the life of a tailings pond. Now reclamation can happen much more quickly.

When things as controversial and as important to the Canadian economy as oil sands and pipelines are criticized, does that affect the interest of people wanting to get into that discipline? It is such an important field.

[John Gamble]

I think it's sometimes the contrary.

One of our strong suits in Canadian expertise is environmental protection and environmental remediation. We've been able to market that expertise all over the globe. Of course, any form of resource extraction has an environmental impact that has to be managed, measured, and monitored. Even the alternative energy sources of wind, tidal, and traditional hydroelectric all create certain other corollaries and spinoff opportunities. Big trucks and lots of pipes are great for some people; some people want to contribute and restore the environment. I find it creates a lot of interest.

I think people are going into environment because they want Canada to be a good player in resource extraction, and that is just one example. You could say the same of manufacturing and even of traditional infrastructure projects.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Is there a great deal of interest among engineers in getting involved in the oil sands?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Give a very brief answer, please.

[Marie Carter]

All disciplines of engineering are involved in the oil sands. Certainly the environmental aspect of it is very attractive to the females.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Ms. Carter.

Mr. Warawa, that's all the time we have.

Now we'll go to Mr. Harris for five minutes.