Evidence of meeting #110 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Our intention is to include you, I can assure you of that.
Ms. Hénault, go ahead.
11:40 a.m.
Director of Legal Affairs, Association nationale des éditeurs de livres
We were involved in the consultation on copyright in the era of generative artificial intelligence. However, like our European counterparts, we think that copyright legislation must be reviewed. We also think that the AI framework legislation should include provisions that protect copyright. It's really important that Canada include this clear message of support for its culture in the AI framework legislation.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
I will come back to that comment, but thank you.
Ms. Desrochers, go ahead.
11:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions
As part of the consultation on copyright in the era of generative artificial intelligence, we also submitted a brief on behalf of all members of our coalition. As Ms. Hénault just mentioned, we believe that issues can be resolved in the Copyright Act. However, we're seeking very few amendments since it's already robust enough to provide an AI framework.
However, some provisions must be added to Bill C-27, including an obligation to retain the data used to train AI systems and make it available to the public in order to permit the authorization and remuneration of copyright holders. That must appear in Bill C-27. There really is a connection between the two acts.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
I'm going to come back to that, but thank you.
Mr. Forget, go ahead.
11:40 a.m.
National Executive Director, Directors Guild of Canada
Thank you very much for the question.
We're talking about the intersection between the two acts, so—
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
I'm sorry. I don't want to interrupt you, but I just want to know whether you participated in that consultation.
11:40 a.m.
National Executive Director, Directors Guild of Canada
Yes. I should have started with that.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
That's great.
I want to ask some more questions, but do you want to make a quick comment? It was supposed to be a quick answer.
11:40 a.m.
National Executive Director, Directors Guild of Canada
Sure. The quick answer is yes.
I can wait for you to come back.
11:40 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
The answer for us is yes. We took part in the consultation. Music Canada shared the position that, of course, the ingestion of music relates to copyright and, of course, the use of AI relates to copyright and that none of these frameworks will work without that being the case.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Yes, we know there's an intersection here, obviously.
I think, Ms. Desrochers, you made a very good comment about how the two work together and how more requirements for transparency within Bill C-27 would actually help copyright to apply to the creative industries. Most of you are nodding your heads, so I take it that you agree with that.
Don't you think Bill C-27 and the amendments proposed make several steps in the right direction? Can we maybe start there and then ask whether we need to go further? From my perspective, in terms of the identification of AI-generated content and strengthened enforcement, it has made some significant headway.
Mr. Forget, would you agree with that?
11:45 a.m.
National Executive Director, Directors Guild of Canada
I think there's still some work to do here. Just to finish my comment from earlier, I think it has been echoed that at the intersection of the two is that copyright is a framework for ensuring compensation and ensuring the application of moral rights and so on. In the context of AI and the uses of copyrighted material, we can create a framework for when that happens and how it happens.
For example, one of our priorities is ensuring that the input that forms the basis of material that the AI systems draw from.... Let's be clear, they are existing works that were authored by DGC directors and other creators in our ecosystem, as the case may be, depending on the medium. It's important to effectively apply the requirements of copyright to ensure consent, compensation and credit and to relate those to AI.
Therefore, we need to strengthen the AI side of the equation to ensure more transparency in the data that's used and more proactive “opting in”, where there's consent for that, to ensure there are opportunities for organizations like ours or for the individual artist to pursue the compensation they are entitled to.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Thank you.
I really agree with your general point.
Unfortunately, I'm out of time. I wish I had more time to go back through all the panellists. Maybe I will on a future round.
Thanks, Chair.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to all the witnesses.
I'll begin by informing you that the questions I'm going to ask you, like those of my colleagues, were prepared using a natural intelligence algorithm and that it all worked very well.
11:45 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Now let's get serious.
Ms. Desrochers, I'd like you to tell us about the unauthorized use of artworks because there is a lot of talk about artists and monetary compensation. In the public's mind, if you propose to make available a list of the works used to train generative AI systems, that's necessarily because the artists want to be paid, which would be entirely legitimate.
Don't artists have a fundamental right to control what happens to their works, to refuse, for example, to allow those works to be used in a film production or adaptation? Why would that be different with artificial intelligence? Why are those models currently allowed to use all of that free of charge, without consent and without anyone even knowing?
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions
Thank you for that very good question.
Models currently aren't allowed to use any of that free of charge or without obtaining consent. We're simply asking that this continue to be the case and that no exception be added to the Copyright Act that would enable text or data searches.
Second, we're asking that the conditions be established that would permit the development of a licensing market in which rights holders can authorize or prohibit the use of their works if they so wish. If they agree, they may simply be paid for the use of those works.
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Are there any exceptions like those for data harvesting or mining?
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions
Yes, there are in other jurisdictions.
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions
There are some in the European Union, unfortunately. When I speak with my counterparts from the European coalitions, they warn Canada not to make the same mistake they did. It comes with many more complex issues.
Our legislative system around copyright is a system based on positive consent, and we are therefore protected. However, with an exception such as this, which is based on negative consent, it's up to rights holders to withdraw from a system that, by default, permits the use of their works. As a result, that burden is too great for creators, and I have attended conferences where some of them said they had spent hours withdrawing their consent on numerous websites.
We think that's the opposite of what we want. People who allow their works to be used must be able to grant permission and to allow a copyright licensing market to emerge.
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Thank you very much.
You said there has to be transparency for artists, the market and everyone else to be able to make informed decisions.
Imagine I've written a novel, which I assure you I haven't. If I want to know whether an algorithm has used my novel as a source of inspiration or whether it has read and copied parts of it; in other words, if I want to know whether an algorithm has had access to it, what resources do I have at my disposal?
