Industry Committee on March 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Garon.

Mr. Masse, you have the floor.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the witnesses for being here. I wish they were here in person, but we do have to note that this was conducted after their resistance to even appearing before this committee. I think that says a lot with regard to Canadians. We didn't have the same problem with another witness who came here earlier.

I do want to focus a bit, though, on something important that Mr. Entwistle said. It's that successive Conservative and Liberal governments have taken over $25 billion in spectrum auction costs into their pockets, and we haven't seen the revenue go back to consumers. We actually have had pricing issues that are significant.

Mr. Entwistle, you noted that $100 per year is what you're financing for this. Would this be a fee that you would say is across the board or is this a fee for your particular company?

[Darren Entwistle]

That fee is across the board. That fee reflects the fact that Canadian wireless operators have historically paid the highest prices in the world for spectrum, through successive spectrum auctions. That is a significant part of our cost base, and I would argue that it's inconsistent with a policy of trying to improve affordability.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes, and that is important to note, because we've baked in a cost there that has no doubt burdened Canadians who are paying for that. We've seen ministers from Maxime Bernier to our current minister benefit from these revenues and there is not have proper consumer protection in place. I don't want that point to be lost.

I do want to move to you, Mr. Staffieri. You were receiving $31.5 million in compensation. Is that an accurate figure? That's what I've been told and what is reported in the media. That is significantly higher than your employees'. Is there a breaking point? I've had the opportunity to work with Ted Rogers in the past. I don't believe that he ever received $31.5 million per year. What can you say to the employees you represent when that figure is quite significantly higher than that of the average person working at Rogers?

[Tony Staffieri]

The compensation of our named executive officers, as with any public company, is transparently disclosed in our proxy circular, so the number is public and, importantly, the manner in which the board determines compensation for the named executive officers is included in that document.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

On that $100 per person for the spectrum auction costs, would you agree with that argument in terms of Mr. Entwistle? Is that what Rogers passes on to its customer base per year?

[Tony Staffieri]

I'll reiterate the points made by Mr. Entwistle, in that we pay amongst the highest spectrum fees in the world, which is going to be an increasing concern as we look to have more and more spectrum to improve network quality.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I just asked simply whether that was the case for you—apparently not. Could you put that in context in terms of how much of the cost of your salary is based on the cost per person per year? I guess I would like to hear what warrants that, especially when your salary is basically 164 times more than the average telco worker's.

[Tony Staffieri]

I'm not sure I understand the question, but let me clarify.

As I said, the board determines my compensation, as well as the compensation for named executive officers. As we look at compensation for our employees generally, we always look to be competitive to attract and retain the best so that our employees can continue to do the best for our customers and for Canadians.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I want to move to Mr. Bibic then.

With regard to the investments you've made, you also recently cut nearly 5,000 Canadians from a job. Can you explain your record profits and your market share, as well as your commitment to your employees and their families, when you laid off 5,000 Canadians just recently?

You are obviously concerned about your shareholders. However, you have 5,000 people who received the hatchet most recently, during a time when, as you actually just talked about, many costs are going up for Canadians. Some 5,000 people lost their jobs at Bell during a time of struggle.

How do you justify that?

[Mirko Bibic]

This was a very difficult beginning of the year at Bell. We certainly did not make that decision lightly.

First and foremost, I want to thank the folks at Bell who were asked to leave for their significant contributions over the years. We made sure that each employee had a fair and reasonable severance package, and we supported them with career transition services.

We're not the only ones, unfortunately, who had to take these very tough decisions. In fact, my competitors had to make similar decisions in the recent past, as have other companies, like Quebecor, TVA, Corus and CBC/Radio-Canada. They're all direct competitors of ours. If you look to the U.S., Meta, Google and Microsoft—again, all direct competitors of ours—made massive decisions in the same vein.

I didn't take it lightly. We had to make these decisions—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I appreciate that, but you also reduced your investment in the London, Ontario, region recently because of the CRTC decision. Would you care to explain that?

Why, after the CRTC decision, did you decide to alter your business plan at the expense of consumers in the London region?

[Mirko Bibic]

Combining the two questions the members asked, this is a hugely important issue.

As I mentioned earlier in response to a question from Monsieur Garon, we're faced right now with a very unsupportive public policy and regulatory environment, so that had an impact. We have a very difficult economy in Canada. Let's not hide the fact that this economy is struggling. Productivity is among the lowest in the world—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Are you losing money as a corporation right now or do you actually have profit margin increases? Have profits stabilized?

[Mirko Bibic]

I'd like to be able to answer the question.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Are you losing money?

[Mirko Bibic]

Inflation is up, interest rates are up and competition is increasing, which is an undeniably good thing for consumers and we support it. If you put these things together—technological change, lowering prices, a difficult macroeconomic environment and a wholly unsupportive public policy environment—companies have to transform and make adjustments, and this is what we've been doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you.

Mr. Perkins, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I, too, would like to express my disappointment that you're not here in person. I'm sure you could have gotten on your private jets to get here without too much trouble.

I'm glad, Mr. Staffieri, you got your Wi-Fi fixed so that you could be here. I'd like to start by asking you a question.

During your acquisition of Shaw, one of the whistle-blowers from your transition team told me—I think it was also in the media—that you were laying off 5,000 people in bringing these two companies together. How many people have you laid off?

[Tony Staffieri]

In our coming together with Shaw, we were very transparent from the outset that there would be a duplication of roles. As we work through the integration, we're very thoughtful about the way we handle that duplication of roles. We launched a voluntary departure program so that our employees had the choice—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm looking for a number. I have limited time. I'm sorry.

Can you just give me a number?

[Tony Staffieri]

As we work through that duplication of roles, we work through them. There isn't a number that we've disclosed externally, but what I will say is that Rogers is a net-growth—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You had a number of conditions that the minister put on this acquisition, which included creating jobs, yet your own transition team said you were cutting 5,000 jobs.

Please answer the question.

[Tony Staffieri]

Rogers is a net-growth company. We made commitments in writing with respect to the Shaw merger, and we are on track to those commitments that we made—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

So you won't answer the question.