Evidence of meeting #8 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was kenya.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Firoze Manji  Director, Fahamu-Networks for Social Justice
Satur Ocampo  Member, Congress of the Philippines
Crispin Beltran  Member, Congress of the Philippines
Luzviminda C. Ilagan  Member, Congress of the Philippines

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

I call the meeting to order. This is meeting eight of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

We have with us today two sets of witnesses. We have Firoze Manji from Kenya, and we also have a group of three witnesses from the Philippines.

I want to apologize in advance to all our witnesses. You are here on very serious matters. We are grateful to you for coming and we have, through surely no fault of yours and hopefully no fault of ours, very tight time constraints.

What I am proposing to do--our committee has agreed to this--is to deal first with Mr. Manji, and then after half an hour go to our delegation from the Philippines. This really does not leave as much time as you deserve. It is simply a constraint that is imposed upon us.

Mr. Manji has given a written presentation to our clerk. Unfortunately, it has not yet been translated, and our rules preclude us from handing it out at this time. We will have it translated and it will be given out within the next day or two by mail to all our members, who will then have the chance to read it.

With that, Mr. Manji, I invite you to start. I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned this to you, but our hope is that you can speak briefly enough that it will allow some questions to be asked. The floor is yours. You know your case best, so I'll allow you to begin. Thank you.

1:05 p.m.

Firoze Manji Director, Fahamu-Networks for Social Justice

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Please excuse the fact that we've not had time to translate our statement into French.

I apologize for not speaking French very well. In Kenya, people do not even speak English well.

I'm very grateful for this opportunity to be here. I speak here as a political commentator on Kenya as well as a member of the Kenyans for peace through truth and justice, a coalition of civic associations in Kenya. However, I speak on my own behalf and not on behalf of the coalition.

Ladies and gentlemen, over 1,000 people have been killed over the last three months in Kenya. Over 600,000 people have fled their homes in fear because of acts of violence against them by a politically motivated armed militia and because of actions of the state, including the police and the presidential paramilitaries, the government service unit.

This morning the United States of America announced its welcoming of the formation of a coalition government that has 43 members in its cabinet. This grossly inflated, large cabinet will cost the country considerable amounts. An estimate this morning of the amount that they will receive in salaries and expenses indicates that 43 cabinet ministers will cost the country approximately 80% of the Kenya national budget--which was approved last year--of $10.2 billion.

I'm concerned that the international community has been rushing to recognize this government. Let us be clear: we have a government that has been formed by a person who is clearly, from the evidence, responsible for having carried out a civilian coup in Kenya, who seized power--rather as Mugabe is trying to do today in Zimbabwe--by fiddling with the votes. Mwai Kibaki also took power by rigging the election votes. He heads the government as a usurper president with no popular mandate in that position.

The fact he does so makes a mockery of the electoral process in which citizens participated, an election process which was largely peaceful, well run, and in which nearly 70% of the electorate participated. Canada's acceptance of the new government would essentially be acceptance of impunity for the crimes of election-rigging and carrying out a coup.

The Kenya government has paid lip service to the holding of an independent judicial inquiry into the process of rigging of the elections. There are no plans to disarm the militia or to bring to justice any of those who carried out extrajudicial killings.

There have been thousands of women raped. The Nairobi Hospital women's centre has been overflowing, and numerous rape crisis centres have had to be set up across the country. No word is provided on how those responsible for these crimes will be brought to justice.

Although there has been verbal commitment by this government to the formation of a commission of inquiry into the evictions from land in the Rift Valley province, this is unlikely to proceed since the last government, which itself was a coalition government comprising exactly the same group of people who will comprise this government, also failed to carry out that commission. In fact, the inquiry that was set up was prohibited from proceeding by the current President Mwai Kibaki. There are no plans at all for ensuring a safe return, a safe passage for the 600,000 IDPs.

We're concerned that people will be hasty in welcoming the formation of this coalition government. In our view, an interim government is certainly necessary--an interim government that has all the different political parties and all the players involved--to form a government that would oversee, in a limited mandate of perhaps one year to 18 months, and bring to justice those responsible for killings, to investigate the causes of the rigging of the elections, and to oversee the re-holding of the presidential elections.

Many are claiming that we don't want to see elections in Kenya again because they resulted in violence. I would like to remind the committee here that the elections themselves were extraordinarily peaceful. It was only once the coup had taken place, once Kibaki had announced that he had won the elections, that in fact violence broke out in Kenya. Even the European Union, in their international observer missions, reported that the elections, as far as they were concerned, were well run, and that it was only after the results were rigged that the violence broke out.

I would like to recommend to this committee that Canada should be cautious in recognizing this current government. It should be seen only as an interim government. Canada should request that the Kenyan government make clear how it will be dealing with the extensive violations of human rights, including the crimes against humanity that Human Rights Watch has alleged are taking place in the Mount Elgon region.

Canada should be careful in terms of its aid, since much of that aid is in danger of being used entirely to finance the ministerial positions. I would hope that Canada would take a position that would say that the way in which it will operate in relation to this government must hold to the principles of democracy, good governance, and human rights. If this government is recognized as a permanent government, then it breaks Canada's commitments to the principles of good governance, since the president himself is somebody who took power through a coup.

I will leave my statements there for the moment. I am open for questions.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you, Mr. Manji.

What we'll do is we'll proceed around the room and give questions to one member from each of the four parties here. Hopefully, if they're all concise in asking their questions, they will leave you adequate time to respond, and we'll be able to hear questions from all of them.

Mr. Silva.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Mr. Chair, we'd agreed that the first turn would be for Mr. Dhaliwal.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Oh, I'm sorry.

Mr. Dhaliwal, please.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Manji.

You mentioned the pogrom in Kenya. You also said that the government should not recognize that government. Is there anything else besides that?

When it comes to Canada, we're a multicultural country in the true sense. It's my understanding that most of the people in Kenya affected were born there, but they were not necessarily considered Kenyan. How can we deal with that situation? Is it a race issue there too?

1:15 p.m.

Director, Fahamu-Networks for Social Justice

Firoze Manji

I'm not sure I understood your question, sir.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Do you think it's just one tribe against the other? That's what I want to find out.

1:15 p.m.

Director, Fahamu-Networks for Social Justice

Firoze Manji

I think it is important for the committee to recognize that in Kenya you have two major parties, PNU and ODM. PNU is the party of Mwai Kibaki, who is a Kikuyu. Some 23% of Kenya's population are Kikuyu. The ODM is led by Raila Odinga, who is from the Luo tribe. Only 13% of Kenya's population is Luo; however, the election results, both parliamentary and presidential, indicated that approximately 50% of Kenya's electorate voted for the PNU—for the Kikuyu party, so-called—and 50% voted for the Luo party, so-called.

No amount of mathematical gymnastics can show that this is an indication that Kenya's electorate voted tribally. Far from it; for the first time in its history, the election demonstrated that it actually voted on issues, not on a tribal basis.

What has happened since is a major outbreak of violence. That violence has had three causes. One is the spontaneous initial violence against the announcement that Kibaki had seized power, but the two other main sources of violence need to be understood.

First of all, they are carried out by armed, politically motivated militia that are funded by people on both sides. No side there is clean in relation to this. The militia operate there in order to attack people of a particular tribe, so as to make this appear to be a tribal warfare.

In practice, this is not what the elections have been about. They have been trying to instill and instigate a tribal war.

These people are not being disarmed. This morning we had news that six people were burned to death in Kibera. Several people have already been killed just today, and this was after the announcement of this new coalition government. People are out there to try to create a tribal conflict. The real danger is that if they play with fire long enough, we will descend into a civil war along tribal lines. I think that is still in the cards.

My main point to you, honourable members, is that the present permanent solution of this coalition government is not a solution for avoiding or preventing the descent into civil war that Kenya has been sitting on the brink of.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Mr. Chair, speaking through you to Mr. Manji, how can we as Canadians, or as the Canadian government representing the Canadian people, intervene, besides not recognizing the present government? And on the aid, what can be done for those 600,000 people who have fled and the families of those more than one thousand who have been killed? I understand there are businesses at risk, as well.

What else can we do? Is it that we can accept more refugees? There might be some people who want to migrate to Canada. Can we fast-track those applications? What do you suggest? Do you have something in mind?

1:20 p.m.

Director, Fahamu-Networks for Social Justice

Firoze Manji

I think an emphasis on the principles of good governance and human rights would be an essential component of that.

The international community, including Canada, has been generous in terms of providing support for the humanitarian cause in the crisis faced by internally displaced people. However, I think what Canada has to say is that if this is to continue, then the Kenyan government has an obligation to ensure safe passage and safe return of those internally displaced people to their homes.

That means, if this is to happen, that those who are responsible, the militia, have to be disarmed, and that those who are responsible for carrying out the killings and for evicting people need to be brought to justice.

I think Canada has a very important role to play in being able to hold the principles of good governance, the principles of democracy, the principles of human rights to the core.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Unfortunately, Mr. Dhaliwal, given our time constraints, we have to move on. Thank you.

Madame Bourgeois.

1:20 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, Mr. Manji. I find it terrible that Kenya is suffering more after all it has suffered over the past few years. I have been to Kenya and I have seen how poor people are.

To begin with, I would like to know where the 600,000 people who have been evacuated come from. Do they come from those garbage slums where they lived in northern and southern Kenya?

1:20 p.m.

Director, Fahamu-Networks for Social Justice

Firoze Manji

I'm not sure I completely understood the question; pardon. Could you please repeat that?

1:20 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Yes. I have visited Kenya and I find it terrible to see how much people are still suffering. They are caught up in what is practically a military situation. I was wondering about the 600,000 people who have been evacuated. Where do they come from?

When I visited the country two and a half years ago, 97% of the population was extremely poor. Three per cent of the population eat three meals a day or at least they were able to eat. I am wondering where exactly these 600,000 people come from. Do they come from the north, the south, the garbage slums they were living in?

1:25 p.m.

Director, Fahamu-Networks for Social Justice

Firoze Manji

Thank you.

The majority of the 600,000 people come from the area known as the Rift Valley province. This has been the area where the vast amount of violence carried out by armed militia has taken place. It's interesting that in those parts of the country, even the northeast, some of the most poor parts of the country, even the coast, there are hardly any internally displaced people. And the reason there are no internally displaced people from there is that there are no armed militia there.

This has been created by these armed militia. It's not people having tribal warfare; it is the armed militia that are creating it.

I think you're right to speak of the disparity in income. Over the last 20 years, the rich have gotten extremely rich and the poor have gotten very poor. The average income today, in real terms, is now lower than it was at independence.

1:25 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Canadian NGOs are doing an excellent job in Kenya. We could also include CIDA, which was very involved there a few years ago, when I visited. What is the situation now with these NGOs? Are they against the military government? Giving more help to them could improve living conditions for Kenyans.

1:25 p.m.

Director, Fahamu-Networks for Social Justice

Firoze Manji

Canadian NGOs have a long tradition of being supportive in Kenya. It's been always our experience of a very close relationship with them. Their support for civil society actions, their support for health care, their support for work in the area of human rights, has been normally outstanding.

I think they do face dangers when they work in these situations, but I don't think any, in the last period, in the last six months, have faced any direct threat to their lives. I may be wrong on that, but as far as I know they haven't. I think this an area where there could be very serious support provided by Canada, especially in the area of justice and human rights.

1:25 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

I have one final question, Mr. Manji.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Please be brief.

1:25 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Are there Canadian commercial or mining companies in Kenya? If so, could you please provide the committee with the names of those companies and indicate which sector they work in, so that action could perhaps be taken with the military government, the new government, instead of with the population?

1:25 p.m.

Director, Fahamu-Networks for Social Justice

Firoze Manji

I would love to be able to do so but I don't have the names at my fingertips. I should have come better informed. I would be happy to communicate with you later and send you details of those companies.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

I'll just advise you, Mr. Manji, that if you are able to send me further documentation, please feel free to send it to the clerk. He will then ensure that it gets distributed to all members of the committee.

Mr. Marston, please.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I'll be brief, because I think we're just about out of time.

Not recognizing the government right now is important because of the way it acquired office. As I understand it, you want a review of CIDA's moneys that are going there.

I was in a meeting previously and overheard some talk of some of this money finding its way into the hands of the congressmen or members. It's a terrible thought, especially with the way things have proceeded in that country.

Beyond that, you talked about disarming the militia. Who do you see doing that, and is there any other role that Canada might play, in your view?

1:30 p.m.

Director, Fahamu-Networks for Social Justice

Firoze Manji

Thank you.

I think disarming the militia could be carried out by a combination of the armed forces, but also with the presence of international observers there, because what has been clearly demonstrated in Mount Elgon region, where the army went out to disarm a group of militia there, was that they carried out with impunity large-scale massacres. The Kenyan army massacred people, civilians as well as alleged members of this.

Human Rights Watch published a report ten days ago in which they document the crimes against humanity that were carried out.

There has to be a way in which perhaps international forces can be used, or the African Union forces can be used, to oversee the process of disarming. Disarming is not an easy matter to carry out.