Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 30th, 2014

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Could Canada influence some of those people? Would some of those countries that might be able to affect what goes on in Iran be more easily influenced? Do we know of any group we could target to try to make it go after Iran for better human rights?

[Dr. Ahmed Shaheed]

I would phrase it as countries that would care about what's happening in the country, countries that would therefore speak out. I think Canada and others that have traditionally championed human rights can, and in my view should, engage these wider audiences in creating a wider channel of communication with Iran. I think that will work, because Iran does stand for elections to the UN in seeking broader engagement. Iran does care about its reputation. It will be far more difficult to dismiss criticism from some quarters than perhaps from countries in the west which, Iran fears, have traditionally been critical of Iran.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Do the increased instabilities in the region have any impact on western attempts to pressure Iran to change its behaviour regarding basic human rights?

[Dr. Ahmed Shaheed]

I must first say that my focus has been very much on Iran and the human rights there, so in the broader sense I am an expert in this broader strategic context, but I am looking at the possible impact in Iran of some of the developments in the region in terms of how they may affect Iran's human rights situation. Ultimately, I think we must all bear in mind that human rights form part of a security agenda, and that unless people feel secure, they will say that the security agenda hasn't really been served. A focus on human security would be an important element of the broader context in which security is conceived.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I know your report took place some time ago, but I just heard on TV either last night or early this morning that Christians are leaving Iraq and going to Iran for safety. This seems strange to me after what we've heard about how minority religions are treated in Iran. As we hear that minority religions are being persecuted in Muslim-dominated countries, could you please give your opinion? I know your focus is on Iran, but I'm assuming that in these other places it must be more terrible than it is even in Iran.

[Dr. Ahmed Shaheed]

I don't have the specific information that you refer to, but I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case because Iran's persecution, since I have documented it, appears particularly focused on new converts from Islam to Christianity.

Iran presents to me—and I mean as peace is in effect—that the traditional Christian communities have an easier time than the newer converts. I am not saying that they have equality of status because if you look at the constitution, there is again a gradation there. But I think the persecution in Iran is focused on new converts to Christianity, who aren't defined by their Muslim names and therefore face harassment, persecution, and so on and so forth.

If there were traditional Christian communities coming to Iran, that may well be something that's happening and it's not out of the ordinary.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Schellenberger.

Mr. Benskin, please.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

We've encountered each other a couple of times now and I'm always fascinated and my head is full after meeting with you, with the amount of information that you carry and share with us.

Like my colleagues, I'm more than a little dismayed at your report in the sense that when Rouhani was elected there was a sense of the possibility of some change towards a more progressive and positive road for Iran and the people in Iran. From what you're saying today, that's not really coming to fruition, and in fact it may be getting worse.

I'm wondering if there is a split in the total government, because there are multi-layers of government in Iran. Is there a split between what Rouhani and whoever might be progressive are trying to do, and what the establishment is trying to maintain? Or is there a slow coming around of Rouhani to the more conservative—no offence—way of thinking in terms of the old ways?

[Dr. Ahmed Shaheed]

My assessment is that, as is the case in most countries, Iran is not a monolith. There are a number of different factions competing and jostling for influence within society.

We see different voices, reflecting very different thinking from these different strands. On the one hand there are those who are inclined to be more constructive and to being more open and to following a reformist discourse. How far they are able to go or are willing to going is a different question.

By contrast, there are those who think that there is a mistake, that they should remain as they are or perhaps even increase some of their core commitments even more.

If you look at the discourse in terms of who is making these pronouncements, there are certain elements identifiable and they come from the government, who has been willing to be more open. In terms of the education sector, that is one; in terms of academic freedom, that is another.

But the judiciary, where they have spoken, by and large has spoken traditionally and conservatively in the sense of their words—now used in Iran—in their statements, such as saying that Iran does not feel obligated to observe national law above sharia commitments. They note sharia being something different from some other sharia readings that other countries profess.

So a commitment to a set of ideals that are at odds with human rights is there in some quarters. We can see in the competition between these two factions, as it were, that some ministers are facing impeachment or dismissal. All of that demonstrates that there is really no agreement as to the direction being pursued.

We saw that even a few years ago, even under President Ahmadinejad when there were issues about cabinet confirmations, about ministry appointments, all of them representing or jostling among different groups.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

You mentioned that under religious persecution, the Baha’i are being singled out as probably the most severely persecuted.

I have been approached in my riding a number of times by people who are of the Baha’i faith, who were trying to get a spouse out, and were having difficulty.

I'm just wondering, from your understanding, why is the Baha’i so attacked? What is it about the faith itself that threatens the conservative whole in Iran?

[Dr. Ahmed Shaheed]

I think if you look at the constitution it becomes clear that the Baha’i are excluded from protection by the constitution. The language used perhaps indicates what the source of that is in terms of giving Shia Islam a privileged status and tolerating Sunni Muslims.

The logic for giving this protection to the other, the ahl al-kitab, the Jewish communities, the Christians, and the Zoroastrians, therefore leaves out others. It would appear that's because the Baha’i are not regarded as people of the book, and that's why they're excluded. I have not heard this spoken publicly, but there's a claim that they are a cult, a claim that they are not a proper faith, speaking of the fact that there is a problem with the Islamic creed's response to the Baha’i faith. So it is very much a religious-based objection to the Baha’i faith that underlies their policies towards the Baha’i.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

With that in mind, you were talking about the persecution of new converts as far as Christianity is concerned. Would you agree that's not so much the persecution of being a Christian but of rejecting Islam and becoming a Christian?

[Dr. Ahmed Shaheed]

Yes, I think that the heart of this conversion issue is that the protection given to the Islamic system—and that's woven into the constitution—is undermined by embracing another faith away from Islam, as it is a faith that is not recognized within the broad Islamic context.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Getting back to what I was talking about before in terms of what might be driving this increase, you were saying that, within a 12-month period around your report, there were 852 executions. Is there a sense that there is a—I hate to use the term—process of cleaning house in Iran? Getting rid of political dissent? Getting rid of any outspoken...be it in the education sector, the science sector, the religious sector, or the political sector?

[Dr. Ahmed Shaheed]

If one looks at the pronouncements made about two years ago following on from the period after the post-election violence from five years ago, there was this articulation of the view that there was a need to sort of be more stringent with regard to the commitment to the ideals and values of the revolution. That's one discourse that is certainly active there.

I'm not saying it's linked to it, but then it was linked to the education sector in terms of the way the education sector was, I think, modified through admission policies to keep women out. The way economic freedom was dealt with and the way some curriculum was purged or revised is one discourse there.

In regard to the executions, however, the dominant claim that I come across from Iranians I speak to is the balance between the reformists and those who oppose reforms. So as a tactic to perhaps discourage the current president and his proclamations and expressions for reform last year, that's one element of it. The other element is, the reforms to the penal code may have actually enabled a speedy execution process by certain procedural issues. Really, it's not very clear to me exactly what is behind this, but the judiciary are the ones leading this trend, and its reforms are in the judiciary. It's a dialogue with them; it's their accountability or whatever that will enable people to address this issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much, Dr. Shaheed, for coming here at our invitation today. You've been very informative, and we're very grateful to you for that.

Colleagues, we're going to have to deal with another related matter before we leave. You've all had distributed to you two budget items. I'm seeking consent to approve them.

Our witness is excused with my apologies and our gratitude.

Thank you very much.

[Dr. Ahmed Shaheed]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We will suspend and move in camera. Thank you.

[Proceedings continue in camera]