Evidence of meeting #51 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rwanda.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sue Montgomery  Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Today is January 27, 2015, and this is the 51st meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

In this meeting, we are continuing our study on the aftermath of the 1994 Rwandan genocide.

We have here today a long-sought-after witness. We have wanted to have Sue Montgomery here for some time, and we've finally succeeded. That's a wonderful gift to us.

Ms. Montgomery works for the Montreal Gazette. She has considerable insight into the Rwanda situation.

Ms. Montgomery, what we'll do today is this. Normally we ask for a presentation of about 10 minutes, but that's at your discretion. When you're finished, we'll then turn the floor over to our members to ask questions. The length of each question and answer is determined by taking the total membership of the committee and dividing it by the amount of time that's left. In other words, the length of your presentation to some degree determines the length of your answers.

At any rate, I'll turn things over to you. Please feel free to commence.

1:05 p.m.

Sue Montgomery Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

Thank you for inviting me, and thank you for looking into this very important issue that's often ignored.

I was able to travel to Rwanda last year. I had been there a few times before to teach journalism, but this time I went as a journalist. I applied for and received funding from the Canadian Institutes of Health Research to do my stories. Unfortunately, that journalism grant has been cut. That might be a suggestion for the government: to give journalists some money to be able to do these kinds of jobs, because certainly our own newspapers and media outlets don't have that kind of money. All that money goes to the CEOs.

My project was to look at the state of mental health in Rwanda 20 years after the genocide. In particular, I was interested in the next generation, the kids that were born during or shortly after the genocide who would be turning 20 years old. What I discovered was an entire group of the population. Despite what things look like on the surface in Rwanda, in many ways it's a success story in Africa, partly due to a mini dictatorship of Kagame. He certainly can be criticized, but he's done a lot to rebuild the country. On the surface it's clean and people are working, and things are developing, but if you scratch that surface what you discover is a very troubled population.

Some of the kids I talked to had been born after their mothers had been raped during the genocide. As you probably know, rape was used as a weapon during the killings in those 100 days of 1994. What I found was that the treatment or the care of these young people was quite spotty. If they were lucky enough to fall into the hands of a small NGO, say from the States, or even a local one, they were able to get some kind of therapy, or someone to pay for their university education. Others who had grown up with these very damaged mothers were extremely damaged themselves. There was one young woman, Angelique. I was interviewing her mother and her mother described what had happened to her during the genocide. She had this horrible, traumatic reaction as she told me her story. Her daughter, who had been born of one of these rapes, just sat there completely cold and unable to react to her mother's pain. Both of them were very much in pain. I don't think it would take that much; I think they just need people to talk to.

There was a very impressive young man from Rwanda who started an organization called Best Hope Rwanda. I've kept in touch with him. He's forever looking for funding and help, because he sees in these women and their children—now adult children—people who are in need of support, psychological and in many ways financial, but mostly psychological. He has started a group therapy session. He has really no experience or expertise himself, but he brings these women together with their kids and he lets them talk, which seems to be extremely helpful for them.

Another is an American Rwandan who started a group called Step Up! She got into the country quite a while ago, early on after the genocide. You can tell that the women her organization has helped are much further along than some of the others I've met. They've created a group where they support each other. They keep bees and they have a sewing cooperative, so they have a way of supporting themselves economically.

One main problem with the kids born from rape is they're not recognized by the government as victims or survivors of the genocide. That's a huge issue. They're seen as the offspring of Hutus, or the génocidaires, or the enemy. They didn't qualify for any kind of educational benefit. That's one big gap that I saw. I think what would help is funding for their post-secondary or even their secondary education.

In terms of other countries that Canada could be helping...as we all know, rape is a weapon of war. It's happening in Congo, in Syria, any place where there's war. Even if there's not war, it tends to be a big issue.

There's certainly need for psychological support in Rwanda. They only have six psychiatrists for the entire country. There are a lot of groups and local Rwandans trying to create more support, where people can just get together and talk about what they've been through. It seems that part of the government's goal in many ways is to bury the past and move on, and declare that they're all Rwandans now, that they're not Hutus and Tutsis, but that denies a lot of the suffering that people experienced.

I'm not an expert in the field at all. I went there. I spent about six weeks to two months talking to people, which isn't easy because there's a huge issue of trust. Nobody trusts anyone in Rwanda. That's probably why there's no corruption: you don't know exactly who it is you're dealing with so you wouldn't dare bribe the person because they might turn you in. Maybe that's something we could use in Quebec a little bit more.

I spent a lot of time talking with people, listening to their pain. Twenty years after, there are a lot of problems. Now they're starting to see in this next generation that never dealt with their pain and especially among the kids of rape, drug abuse and alcoholism, which had never been part of their culture before. That's an unfortunate thing. It's probably partly because of their depression but also because they really don't have anything to do because nobody can pay for their education.

Those were my observations. I don't know, maybe it would be better if you asked me questions.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

All right. Thank you. That's very concise. Not all of our presenters have been as self-disciplined as you have been. Members of the committee will know what I'm talking about.

We're at 15 minutes. We should have time for seven-minute question-and-answer rounds. As always, I encourage our committee members to keep the questions short so the answers can be long.

Mr. Sweet.

January 27th, 2015 / 1:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Thanks, Ms. Montgomery. Your frankness is refreshing.

It was staggering: you mentioned there are six psychiatrists for 12 million people. There's a shortage here of psychiatrists and psychologists to look after the entire population, but it's nowhere near six for 12 million.

Since you were on the ground recently, I want to ask if you have any sense of this. The number we have is there are 20,000 offspring that were born from these hundreds of thousands of rapes. Is that close to accurate? Do you have any feeling for that from the amount of time you spent there?

1:10 p.m.

Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

Sue Montgomery

Yes, that's the number I have as well, 20,000. I certainly didn't see all 20,000, but in the villages I did visit, when I met with these people, there was quite a large group each time. That seems to be the accepted number. Of course, it's always impossible to know. They even argue over how many were killed during the genocide.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Yes.

From the CV we have with regard to your background, over the years of dealing with this subject you've actually acted in almost a pastoral way, in a confessional way, with some of the women who have gone through this trauma. Can you give us an idea about the kinds of things you've heard from them, obviously anonymously, but just the kinds of things they share with you?

1:15 p.m.

Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

Sue Montgomery

The women in Rwanda?

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

The women who have suffered rape and then had offspring.

1:15 p.m.

Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

Sue Montgomery

As an example, one woman I met with was actually doing quite well. Her husband had been killed and she was taken hostage, I guess, or taken as a prisoner by the Hutus and repeatedly raped while her five-year-old daughter was raped in the next room. She could hear the daughter being raped—it often happened that the child was raped at the same time—and couldn't stand to hear it anymore so she escaped. I found her reaction sort of unusual. I thought if that were me, maybe I would try to save my child. But she said she knew there was no way she could get near her child to save her; the only thing she could do was run away from the screaming and the pain that she was going through.

When the genocide was over, they were reunited by one of the UN organizations, I guess, or the Red Cross. The little girl was quite emaciated and extremely injured internally, as you can imagine, having been raped by adult men over God knows how many days. Then the mother herself discovered that she was pregnant through one of her rapes. There she was with a little girl who had been raped repeatedly and was completely traumatized by that. She herself was traumatized, and now she was pregnant and going to have a child.

I met with them. The child who was raped is now a young woman and is going to university. She didn't want to talk about what had happened to her at all. She only spoke about her father, her dead father, in glowing terms. That's all she wanted to talk about. But her mother told me that she really hates men, and for many, many years she would hide under tables and make strange noises.

The son who was born of rape is now a lovely young man. They have managed to create this little family of theirs with the help of one of the U.S. NGOs. We're friends on Facebook now and he takes selfies all the time. The problem with him is that he doesn't have anyone to fund his education because he is not considered to be a victim of the genocide. I find that really unfortunate; he is a very bright, lovely young man, and if I had the funds I would send him to university.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

On that subject, you said that when you were there for the six weeks, on the outside it seemed everything was fine, but when you scratched the surface, you saw that there was a lot of....

One thing you said that surprised me, particularly because I've just come from a Holocaust memorial event, was that they're trying to bury this whole thing. Is there no effort at remembrance so that it doesn't happen again or anything?

1:15 p.m.

Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

Sue Montgomery

Well, maybe I was a bit harsh. They have their memorials every year and the line is, “We're all Rwandans.” There's no.... Everybody repeats that by rote, but there are still these divisions because certain things haven't been dealt with. There are many Hutus who were killed but had not participated in the genocide; they feel that they suffered as well, but they're not allowed to suffer. I mean, the names Hutu and Tutsi are very loaded. If you're Tutsi, you were a victim; if you're Hutu, you were the génocidaire.

They don't want to talk about that, and any kind of talk that brings up these divisions is against the law. There are people in jail for talking like this, so when you talk about it, you have to do it in very hushed tones. They're very uncomfortable, although there's one MP I interviewed who is great. He started this reconciliation road show. He's only 30. He goes around and he gets young Hutus and Tutsis together to talk about what's happening. Because he's an elected minister, he's able to get away with this. He's sort of like the youth minister. So things seem to be opening up a bit. It really is the elephant in the room. If they don't address it, I think it's going to explode again. There's still a lot of resentment and anger.

It's not so much that they just want to put the past behind them, but Kagame and so on...as you may know, he likes to get rid of any kind of dissent, unfortunately. He just wants to forge ahead and get away from the country being identified as the country where there was the genocide.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Thank you.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you very much.

Are we turning now to Mr. Marston or Mr. Benskin?

Mr. Marston, the floor is yours.

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I want to say, Ms. Montgomery, that I agreed with your conversation when you first started talking about training journalists, because journalists in many ways are the consciences of countries, especially countries that have gone through this type of horrific set of events.

PTSD is something that's just started to become part of the conversation in North America. I have had it for 40 years. I was a signal maintainer and took care of railway crossings. I had four fatalities in one crossing in 11 months. To this day 40 years later I have a recurring dream, about every month, in which I'm standing before my supervisor trying to explain why I had not tested the crossing appropriately. Actually I had, but there I was, totally innocent, and I still pay for that now. The advantage I had was being able to discuss it with co-workers and other people.

When I look at this situation, you've talked about that peer-to-peer counselling that happens or conversations with somebody who facilitates that. You mentioned an American NGO that was doing some work around that. It strikes me that there are two levels to this. In Hamilton, we marked the anniversary of Rwanda. One young man spoke. He was one of the twentysomethings. Do you have an idea of how many people, how many of these victims, are in Canada? Is this not something we should be providing here, as well as over there? Do you see a particular NGO that might be worthy of the Canadian government helping to facilitate this in Rwanda?

1:20 p.m.

Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

Sue Montgomery

To answer your first question, there are a lot of survivors here in Canada, mostly in Montreal because of the French. I'm friends with a number of them. I think in a way they do better when they're here because they're not reminded of it all the time, and they're kept busy just trying to establish their life here, or that's my sense anyway. I'm sure some of them have their moments of trauma.

In terms of NGOs in Rwanda, it's difficult because the Rwandan government has been very strict about which NGOs can operate in Rwanda, which I think is a good thing. Maybe Haiti could take a lesson from that. They are trying very hard to keep it homegrown and culturally sensitive. They don't want NGOs coming in and just telling them what to do and how to do it. I respect that and I think it's a good thing.

There is one woman I am aware of who is working on her master's in public health, who I would definitely support in her efforts. She started an NGO called Living With Happiness. She said that the problem with the government in dealing with this is that they are very institutional. They want studies and statistics. I guess all governments want that. There's very little hands-on. She said that not only do they need help for the people who are suffering, but they also need help for the caregivers. Her goal would be to have a place in the country. She actually has the land for it, which she inherited. Both her parents were killed in the genocide. Her whole family actually was killed. She managed to escape just by luck, but she was raped. She would like to establish a place where people could go and paint, or tell a story. It's a very oral culture. They could do some kind of therapy that way. I don't think the kind of traditional therapy we might see here, where someone goes to see a psychologist and lies on a couch for 50 minutes would work there.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

No, that's why I mentioned peer to peer. It's a national event. It's not quite the same as an individual event that we may have in this country like an assault or whatever.

1:25 p.m.

Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

My concern around this is if you have a government that is, I won't say they are in denial, but they certainly are trying to push it aside to address the initial victims of the rapes, that's one level of the peer-to-peer contact. This allows them to...you described the little girl that was under the table. Until you talk her out from under the table there's no end to this for her. This is one level. But now the survivors, the children who are in their twenties now, are going to have an institutional problem like education, and they are still going to have the residual effects of the trauma that they lived through just observing their mothers and how they survived.

1:25 p.m.

Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

Sue Montgomery

Yes, and they risk passing it on to their—

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Exactly.

1:25 p.m.

Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

Sue Montgomery

—like we've seen with Holocaust survivors. It goes on for probably three or four generations.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I agree. I've met people who are grandchildren of victims of Auschwitz. It's an entirely different conversation that you have with them. Their reality is different. Their reality is the people on the ground. Rwanda is very different.

Again, coming back to Canada, have you heard of any groups in Canada that are giving direct support?

1:25 p.m.

Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

Sue Montgomery

In Canada, with survivors here?

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Yes.

1:25 p.m.

Journalist, Montreal Gazette, As an Individual

Sue Montgomery

I know that the government used to provide psychological services for newcomers and new refugees, but I think that's been cut like a lot of services. I think survivors here who are looking for psychological support have to go through the same channels as the rest of us.