Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2023

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

I think that right now, per capita, Canada has resettled the most, but I hear you. I think all of us are devastated when we see what is happening in that place.

Do I have time for another question, Chair?

No. Okay.

Thank you again. I appreciate the work that you're all doing. It's so important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Ms. Vandenbeld.

We will now go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to thank all the witnesses for being here as part of this important study.

I don't want to waste too much time, so I am going to ask Ms. Malavoy and Mr. Payne my questions right away.

You can choose which of you will answer, based on your own knowledge.

Your knowledge of developments in the living conditions in Afghanistan is quite specific, from what I understand. You talked about the urgency of the situation, Ms. Malavoy, and we have noted this.

Can you describe what life is like for Afghan women in Afghanistan right now?

[David Payne, Former Member, Comité sur le parlementarisme et la démocratie, Cercle des ex-parlementaires de l'Assemblée nationale du Québec]

Yes.

My name is David Payne. I was a member of the National Assembly of Quebec for 15 years, and over the last 20 years I lived in Afghanistan for three years while I was managing a parliamentary program.

For the last year and a half, I have been in talks with Afghan women, specifically, often two or three times a week. I can tell you that the situation they are in right now is catastrophic. I could even show you videos that would make your hair stand on end: torture and beatings. I have a list with me that I have compiled of 65 women judges. Several of them have died.

Greece has created a special category for women prosecutors or judges, specifically. Some of them already have their visas. They are already living there.

To answer Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe's question, we have to consider what the Minister, Sean Fraser, said just two weeks ago: that there were no categories for selecting people to be admitted under our programs.

In all modesty, I have to contradict him, because we are well aware that there is a special category for interpreters that was created specifically for this purpose. People who worked at the embassy also have privileges. Some will say that this is deliberate favouritism on the part of the Government of Canada.

Of the 65 judges on the list I have here, Canada, to our knowledge, is not accepting any, because the Minister says there is no category-based selection. We who work in this field would like to understand this justification, because there are selections: in particular, interpreters are selected and embassy workers are selected.

Could we also help some of these 65 Afghan women who are there? I have all the facts and personal information.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Payne.

I am going to try to go quickly, because I already have no more than three minutes left.

Ms. Malavoy, in your opening remarks, you talked about the government's representation. Could you expand on that?

Right now, the Government of Canada's representation on the ground in Afghanistan seems to be inadequate.

[Marie Malavoy]

I will just reiterate what is in our brief, and then give Mr. Payne the floor. What we are saying is that at present, the interface for people who are in Afghanistan is a form. Sometimes, when they request something, they are even referred to the United Nations. So there is no interaction with these people. Mr. Payne will be in a better position to tell you about this.

[David Payne]

What are the selection criteria? We are asking the government in Ottawa. How is selection being done? We don't know. Do they know, themselves? Are there categories? How are applicants for immigration and applicants on humanitarian grounds selected? We don't know.

We would very much like to be involved, but we can't. It isn't just a matter of knowing what the criteria are, it is also about how the choices are being made. The government does not communicate directly with the people who are going to be selected, other than when the final decision is made.

We are prepared to help them. I have a list here of 250 parliamentarians. I worked with a number of them for three years. I know several of them. Here we have the name of Mursal Nabizada, who was the secretary of the defence committee of the parliament. She was on our list. She needed help, but she was killed.

There is no category for parliamentarians; there is no category for lawyers; there is no category for judges. Those judges are the same people who tried and sentenced the Taliban. The Taliban then hunted them down, pursued them, searched them out, tortured them and killed them. I saw it happening and I can still hear the terrible cries.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

What I understand is that the applicants are not in a position to know the actual number of people admitted to Canada before making their application. So there is a big communication deficit and too little information available to people in Afghanistan who would like to come here, especially women.

[David Payne]

How is the 30,000 broken down? What are the categories? Do they exist?

We don't know this. You could look into it.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Quickly, I would like each witness to answer yes or no to my next question.

Do you think the Canadian Criminal Code is a hindrance to the work of Canadian non-governmental organizations on the ground in Afghanistan right now?

[David Payne]

Yes, absolutely.

[Marie Malavoy]

Yes, absolutely, we do.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Ms. Mosadiq, what do you think?

[Horia Mosadiq]

Yes, I think.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Ms. Ghashem, what do you think?

[Laila Gashem Rashid]

Absolutely, we need to see the change as soon as possible.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

My timer tells me that my speaking time is up, but I don't see you on the monitor, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

You're right, the six minutes are now up.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Right. Next time, I'd like to have visual contact with you. This is the first time I have participated in a meeting virtually, and I realize I have never seen your signals. I'm giving this reminder in order to facilitate everyone's work. Thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Ms. McPherson, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank all of the witnesses for being here today and for sharing this important information with us.

This has been something that has been incredibly difficult to watch happen in Afghanistan. We are at 501 days since education was taken away from women and girls in Afghanistan. We know the results of what happened last time when the Taliban took education away for six years from women and girls in Afghanistan. I want to tell you all that I will do everything I can as a member of Parliament to do what I can to help the women of Afghanistan. That can't be allowed to happen again.

On January 15, I woke up and found out that the Afghanistan member of parliament that Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe and I, with others from other parties, had been trying to bring to Canada had been murdered. It was probably one of the worst days of my career as a parliamentarian.

What I want to talk about right now is the education piece, I guess.

It's very clear that Canada must change its anti-terrorism laws. We have had the anti-terrorism laws, which the government has said it will change, but it has been months and months, and nothing has happened. I'll continue to push the government on that.

However, in terms of education, in terms of ways that we can support women and girls, I am going to ask my colleague from Canadian Women for Women in Afghanistan to talk a bit about the implications for women. What are the implications not just in women and girls not having access to education but in what the Taliban is doing in Afghanistan with regard to the curriculum? What is happening to the other pieces of the education system that are being irrevocably damaged at the moment in Afghanistan?

[Laila Gashem Rashid]

Thank you for the question. This is a very important question that is touched upon very little in discussions around Afghanistan and the education piece there.

We have serious concerns about the curriculum changes that the Taliban is proposing. Their overhauled curriculum was leaked some months ago. This actually might be the most consequential outcome of the Taliban's takeover, in our view. Of course, it will immediately affect boys, who will be subject to the curriculum right away. Assuming that the Taliban eventually succumbs to the pressure to reopen girls' schools, this is the education that the girls will be coming back to as well.

The effort to provide alternative forms of quality education, virtual or otherwise, to Afghan children shouldn't be seen as a short-term plan. We really recommend that this be a long-term need that we'll be dealing with.

For those on this panel who aren't aware of what the new curriculum looks like or will look like in Afghanistan, it's a complete overhaul. Entire subjects are being removed. Textbooks will be stripped of all images of living things, girls doing sports, mentions of democracy or human rights and non-Islamic beliefs, as they call them, like love for all humanity or any sort of encouragement of peace, women's rights or education. The UN is referred to as an evil organization. There's no mention of music, television, parties or birthdays. The radio is referred to as colonial media. There's no mention of elections, as I said. There is lot of stripping of Afghan traditions as well as historical and literary figures.

Included in the curriculum will be.... They state that the purpose of the curriculum is “to maintain and expand ideological interests of the Taliban”. In their own words, they recommend that the curriculum be used to spread the “seeds of hatred against western countries” and this “should be planted in students' minds”. This is taken from their document.

Really, it's propagating their narrative of history and focusing on the Islamic world. In the curriculum, they even suggest prioritizing and propagating jihad. It articulates justifications for the use of violence to advance the Taliban's goals, the rules of killing in war and justification for killing other Muslims, even.

It's terrible. The curriculum we're looking at is no better than no education at all. Of course, we thought this was predictable. We saw something like this in the previous rule. It's going to have severe consequences. The security risks and the consequences that we will see globally from this curriculum change are quite obvious. There will be humanitarian consequences as well as development and aid consequences. Getting an education from Afghanistan will be a stain on its graduates, rather than an actual credential.

Canada can do a lot to respond to the situation. I'll just briefly summarize.

We know that the Taliban doesn't care about statements of condemnation from the international community. They're not effective. The more effective approach here would be to completely circumvent the Taliban in providing education to Afghan children. Virtual education is definitely one of the strongest ways that Canada can provide support to what we hope will be students who go back to post-Taliban Afghanistan and be the real asset there.

Of course, support for students or Afghans leaving to access education is really important, as is access to safe refuge and harbour, funding alternative independent education systems and funding schools for displaced Afghans.

There's really a huge opportunity here. There's such a drive from Afghans to get a good education. If this is available to them or made available to them, you could end up with a population that's accessing better quality and a more relevant education than they would have otherwise.

It is going to take a lot of will, creativity and willingness to take risks on behalf of Canada.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Ms. Rashid.

I don't mean to interrupt, but I do want to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit about the #LetHerLearn campaign.

You only have about 30 seconds, but if you could share with this committee some information about it, that would be fantastic.

[Laila Gashem Rashid]

Yes, absolutely.

With the Taliban mandating changes to higher education and banning women from university, our campaign seeks to provide an ability for universities and higher education institutions to sign up to, for example, accept transfer students, enable virtual enrolment, waive application fees, assist with financial needs for Afghan women, prepare future university students and contribute resources and volunteers.

I'm speaking as quickly as I can, but really the point here is that the Canadian government can do a lot to provide grants and scholarships to these institutions that are taking these steps. It can process student visas for Afghan women more efficiently and perhaps in a category separate from other student visas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you.

We'll continue with our next round for three and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Ehsassi.