Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2023

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It was my understanding that we would be going to the Conservative member next. Is that not correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

In the second and subsequent rounds, it's always the Liberals first.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you for that. My apologies.

Allow me to start off by thanking all the witnesses for the incredibly urgent and vital work that they are doing. I am very grateful.

If I could start with Ms. Rashid, thank you very much for the ideas you shared with us. I think you're absolutely right that there is a crisis and that there should be a focus on education.

When it came to finding alternative types of education for Afghan women, you did suggest that other countries have been more forceful and more generous in making those opportunities available—of course, I speak here of virtual opportunities. Could you tell us what other countries are doing? I think it is imperative that Canada do so as well, and I'm sure that all the members of our committee would very much like to advocate that. Could you share what other countries are doing and the lessons to be learned for Canada?

[Laila Gashem Rashid]

Absolutely.

There have been some announcements so far that have been really promising. We know, for example, that Germany has announced scholarships to support 5,000 women to study in neighbouring countries, which is very significant. We hope it's only the first step for a country like Germany in their decisions on this topic. We know, for example, that British universities are offering free courses to women in Afghanistan through FutureLearn. This has the capacity to scale up very quickly, which is also a very significant step in the right direction. The University of the People has, I think, over 2,000 Afghan women currently enrolled in their free degree programs. There's a lot being done. I could go on.

The key takeaway here is that Canada is an outlier in this work. We are behind and we need to catch up. That would be my recommendation here.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Absolutely. Thank you for that and for all the examples with respect to virtual education.

I think you cited two distinct programs. You mentioned transfer students as well. Can you unpack that for us so that we have a better sense as to what can be done on that end of things?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Please do within a minute.

[Laila Gashem Rashid]

Yes, absolutely.

One of the big things that will help with the ban on higher education for Afghan women at the moment is to encourage universities to allow for a transfer for women in Afghanistan who are partway through their degrees.

What we're calling for is for universities in Canada to recognize their prior education and to streamline the administrative process—for example, to waive international student fees and perhaps consider their fees to be Canadian tuition fees instead. Practical steps like this would definitely help with the transfer of current existing students in Afghanistan to Canadian universities.

The role of the Government of Canada is very important, though. In our view, if the change is made in Canada's processing of student visa applications for Afghan women and an exemption is made for those to be processed quickly, it signals to universities that Canada is serious about taking on these students quite urgently.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you.

We'll continue with the Conservatives and Mr. Aboultaif.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you. Thanks to the witnesses.

Ms. Rashid, you've presented a lot of practical points. I think it's a nice road map for moving forward. I believe we need a long-term alternative in education. The focus on it is very critical, and based on the scale, based on the....

This is an ongoing thing. As long as the Taliban is there, we need to have that alternative in place. What do you see as the best practice in order to achieve the result needed? What did we learn from the 20 years before we basically gave this country back to the Taliban, in terms of education?

[Laila Gashem Rashid]

I'm not clear on your first question, but I'll answer the second question.

Of course, there's a lot to be learned from the last 20 years when we had access to be able to build an education system in Afghanistan. The first thing I would say—and this is my personal view, not from any studies—is that there's a huge willingness in Afghanistan from Afghan boys and girls to learn. I know that my colleague Horia is a lot more knowledgeable in this, as she's from there and has been there during that time, but there's a big willingness. Of course, the number of women we just talked about recently—the judges, the lawyers, the rights activists, the women in parliament—didn't happen overnight, but 20 years is a very short amount of time to go from no education whatsoever for women and girls to having that volume of girls participating not only on the fringe of society but in a very meaningful way in society in Afghanistan, so the 20 years—

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

We've done 20 years of educating the vast population of Afghanistan, mostly women and girls, which raises the question of how that can be the premise for the future plan to achieve the results we are looking for.

[Laila Gashem Rashid]

Absolutely. I think the efforts are not lost. The education doesn't go anywhere. People are still educated and they are able to continue contributing to their economy and to their culture and their people, whether that's within the country or remotely.

We see a lot of resistance constantly from women and men in Afghanistan to the current regime and to the consequences of it, but of course hiring women and men remotely, especially women who aren't able to work in Afghanistan.... We know we have a shortage of labour in Canada, for example, so providing access to virtual work.... There is a massive talent pool of engineers, software engineers, lawyers and doctors, with all sorts of very useful education credentials that we could definitely use remotely, while also allowing those who have gained such credible education over the years to continue to provide education to their own women and girls, especially the children in these virtual schools.

For example, one of our programs, DD Classrooms, allows us to hire Afghan women teachers who were previously teaching in Afghanistan to continue teaching in the country virtually to girls who are in Afghanistan, all on a virtual platform.

Absolutely, this education is not lost. It hasn't gone anywhere.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Mr. Aboultaif.

We'll continue on to Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor for three and a half minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Malavoy, you said that Canada was not doing enough, compared to some other countries.

Can you tell us more about that?

[David Payne]

I would connect this with the question that was asked earlier, for which I didn't get an answer.

I'm going to give the example of the American University in Kabul, which was closed in the days following the Taliban takeover.

After that, courses were very quickly offered online outside the country. They are still being given. For example, Qatar is currently admitting quite a few women.

Last week, I spoke three or four times with a person who is taking the courses offered by a university in Qatar. I won't give the student's name. The United States has promised that everyone who receives a diploma from the University of Doha in Qatar will be able to get a visa after their graduation ceremony. That is a tremendous announcement.

Why can't Canada do better, with everything it has going for it? For example, we could offer distance training for lawyers or young people. It is a lot easier for people to get organized that way, even from shelters.

As well, as I said earlier, we can suggest the most disadvantaged and vulnerable categories of people, and train them. We have these lists. We can help Canada, but Canada, or at least the Minister, is refusing to disclose the selection criteria.

It is also important to understand how this is administered. There is no feedback given to the Afghans concerned. There is no communication, and no intermediaries, like us or other people who live in Afghanistan or Canada and are in contact with the population, are allowed. We can help them.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I have one minute of speaking time left, and I want to let you have it.

You can add something we have not talked about or you can tell us about your priorities and the reason why you are here today.

[Marie Malavoy]

I will answer first, and Mr. Payne can add to my answer.

One of the things we want to point out is that an immigration minister has discretion.

When we wanted to bring people to Canada at the time of the Kosovo crisis, we were able to do it. When we wanted to repatriate people from Syria, we were able to do it. In this case, the Minister does not want to use his discretion to help Afghan women especially, but he is able to do it. Apart from any amendment to the law, he could make decisions, but he is not doing that right now.

Unfortunately, we are out of time.

We have our last questioner, so if you have the floor again, you can continue with that.

Ms. McPherson, you have three and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We didn't get quite enough time to talk as much as I would have liked about the #LetHerLearn campaign. Ms. Rashid, could you please send us a written submission on that, just some more information for the analysts and for the committee?

I want to go back to the anti-terrorism laws and the need for the humanitarian carve-out.

I'd like to ask Ms. Malavoy this question. What would it mean for Afghans and what would it mean for Canadian CSOs or NGOs if the government actually followed through with what it has promised and fixed the humanitarian carve-out within our anti-terrorism legislation? What would that mean for Afghans?

[David Payne]

First of all, Canada has a remarkable history of support in all kinds of training programs in Afghanistan. I've lived with them for three years. I've seen the extraordinary work of Canadians and humanitarian groups of all kinds: medical, legislative, and parliamentary. There are still people in Canada

who can do a tremendous job of supporting the Minister of Immigration. There is a network of knowledge about what is happening and has happened in Afghanistan that the Minister and people in his department can use.

It is amazing that medicine or education can be done remotely. We also have people who can travel, but we are bound by the Code, under which we cannot take humanitarian aid to these countries.

As we speak, the immigration policy is falling apart when it comes to Afghanistan.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I think it's clear to all of us in this room that other countries have found their way through that particular issue. The fact that Canada has not, and has dragged its feet on it, is quite shocking.

[David Payne]

The United States, Italy and Greece all have ad hoc programs that are tailored to the situation, as my colleague Ms. Malavoy was just saying. Right now, in Afghanistan, we are doing nothing.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

As I think about this, I want to end this session on a hopeful note, because the women of Afghanistan deserve it. We need to honour them for the fighting they are also doing on the ground. I know all of us will continue to work to help those who are at most risk in Afghanistan. We will continue to do what we can to push our government, but I did want to share with the committee a story.

I was speaking to a grade 6 class in Edmonton, Alberta, during the last constituency week. I was telling them about how sad I was, because we had just found out about this Afghan member of parliament and, of course, the idea that women and girls couldn't go to school. Sitting in the front row of one of those classrooms was an Afghan girl who had come in the last year. She was in school. It gave me such hope. It makes me so resolved to help all of those millions of women and girls who are not given that opportunity right now.

Thank you all so much for being here and sharing this with us. I know all of us at this committee will continue to fight for those women and girls.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson, to help us conclude on that note.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Payne and Ms. Malavoy, thank you for being here in person.

To those who have been participating by Zoom, Ms. Rashid and Ms. Mosadiq, thank you for your testimony today. It'll be reflected in our report. Everything you've said is evidence for us. We will take this and carry it forth.

Now we will move into a closed session to discuss committee business.

Again, a sincere thank you to the witnesses who came to us online and to those who came in person.

We'll suspend.

[Proceedings continue in camera]