Evidence of meeting #40 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colombia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Sir, I'm sorry; in terms of risks and benefits, are you equating the drug trade that's going on now in Colombia to Canadian companies doing business in Colombia in mining? Are you saying that they're about equal?
11:35 a.m.
Communications and Outreach Coordinator, MiningWatch Canada
No, sir. I was referring to the centralization of the benefits and the decentralization of the risks, and making no attempt to relate them in any other way.
Our study was not intended to look at the entire Colombian economy or the entire Colombian conflict. It was intended to look at the specific case of Canadian investment in the extractive industries, and in particular in mining, and to look at the human rights risks that could have been implicit in this activity.
I think the important conclusion is that we could not find a mechanism of ensuring that a Canadian mining investment could be made with any sense of security that there was no previous violation of human rights, that the investment would not be potentially supporting people who had engaged in human rights violations, potentially encouraging them to continue that activity, and reinforcing their position, or that the land tenure of the leases, the mineral leases and so on, could be assured to be conflict-free--in other words, that they in good faith....
We did find the best of intentions, shall we say, in those mining companies' activities. We could not find that, with good faith, purchasing land and securing mineral leases, they could ensure that those titles were all clean and clear, if you will.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Respectfully, buying land in rural Nova Scotia, sometimes it's very tough to say whether or not that land is completely free and clear of any illegal activities at some point in its history as well. The fact is that you're asking Canadian companies to do that, which is probably impossible, because I would expect that almost all of Colombian land has at one point or another been implicated in some form of illegal activity.
Has there been specific forced displacement that has provided land to Canadian companies so we can talk to those companies? I'd like to call those companies and speak with them and investigate where Canadian companies have been involved in or have benefited from forced displacement. It would be very helpful to have the names of the companies and the plots of land that went to those Canadian companies as a result of forced displacement. That would be very helpful. That kind of granular detail would enable us to contact those companies and to demand some answers to us in terms of corporate social responsibility.
11:40 a.m.
Communications and Outreach Coordinator, MiningWatch Canada
I think you'll find in the study itself that we're not making a direct link. What we're trying to do is identify the risk of being implicated in very serious violations. We did try to find the mechanisms that would have allowed companies or the Canadian government implementing a free trade agreement to ensure that this was not the case.
I'm not sure that I would equate the situation in rural Colombia with the situation in rural Nova Scotia. Having grown up there myself—Nova Scotia, that is—I know that not everything is entirely above board all the time.
We can talk later about the road contracts.
11:40 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
I'll tell you, I know every member of this committee, and if you were to provide us with information, granular information, linking a Canadian company to specific displacement, I think we would, as a committee, want to talk to those companies and hear their side of it. We are interested in the corporate social responsibility, but we can't have phantom allegations. We need to have specific ones that we can take to those companies.
We're genuinely interested in that, Jamie.
11:40 a.m.
Communications and Outreach Coordinator, MiningWatch Canada
Again, the distinction I'm trying to make is that if we had that kind of information, if we had discovered that in the course of this study, it would have blown up already. We have other cases of legal action and international complaints and so on--with the OECD national contact point and so on--that have been brought forward and where those specific details are available.
I think the purpose of the study was to try to pin down, following the work of this committee on the human rights impact assessment, how exactly that risk could be minimized--ideally, eliminated--in the course of business.
Again, we found a gap. In some cases the gap was more serious than others. We found companies that weren't even familiar with the available mechanisms and protocols. We found other companies that were, as I say, doing the best they can in a difficult situation.
The other point is on where I started a little while ago; I think Étienne can probably speak to this. In the Sur de Bolivar, one of the employment options, if you will, for people is small-scale mining. One of the issues we looked at was the displacement of the small-scale miners in Marmato. You're talking about tens of thousands of people, in this case, who would be displaced by a proposed large-scale mining operation that would employ a few hundred people.
The question there is that as the displacement proceeds, what are those small-scale miners supposed to do?
We're not advocating for small-scale mining as an activity, because it is dangerous for the miners and the environment. It is a topic of discussion on its own, as to whether appropriate technology and investment in small-scale mining can make it productive and safe, but--
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Medium-sized mining is all right? You're against the small ones and the large ones, but the medium ones are all right?
I'm just trying to ascertain what kind of mining you like.
11:45 a.m.
Communications and Outreach Coordinator, MiningWatch Canada
We're in favour of--
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
11:45 a.m.
Communications and Outreach Coordinator, MiningWatch Canada
Well, no, I'd like to answer, if I may, Mr. Chair.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
December 1st, 2009 / 11:45 a.m.
Bloc
11:45 a.m.
A voice
Three minutes.
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
Good morning, gentlemen, and welcome to the committee.
This is a very sensitive issue. I get the impression that you are being somewhat careful in your remarks, and I also understand that there is a link between investments made and human rights violations committed in Colombia.
Essentially, you are saying that an increase in Canadian investments, through the implementation of investment protection measures, could create the conditions for greater human rights violations.
Could you explain to us exactly how that could occur?
11:45 a.m.
Member, Groupe de recherche sur les activités minières en Afrique
In the Sur de Bolivar region, a Colombian government human rights protection agency issued very clear recommendations, i.e., that eliminating large scale investments in the region would help avoid egregious human rights violations. In particular, that would protect the people we talked about earlier, the members of the Agromining Federation of Sur de Bolivar, or FEDEAGROMISBOL, who live in that region, conduct farm production and mining activities and earn their living in the Sur de Bolivar region, despite its very difficult human rights conditions. That is one of the regions in Columbia that has been most hard hit by armed conflict.
We are concerned about the exploration concessions granted to Canadian companies in the region. The names of those companies are listed in the report. Far be it from me to claim that those companies are complicit in human rights violations and the actions of paramilitary groups.
Mr. Bryson was wondering how we could ask Canadian mining companies to ensure that their concessions be free from the risks that we describe in our report. In fact, it is not necessarily up to a mining company to give that assurance. Here is the question: does the Canada-Columbia Free Trade Agreement give the Colombian government the leeway it needs now and in the future to implement the recommendations of the human rights ombudsman in order to protect the human rights of people in Sur de Bolivar? That is the gist of the issue.
One of the mechanisms that should be addressed, and this is our recommendation, is that the free trade agreement be subjected to a human rights impact study. Such a study would go far beyond the scope of what we were able to conduct. It would eventually lead to the establishment of mechanisms guaranteeing the right of the Colombian government to revoke an exploration concession on lands that were clearly identified as having been a place of forced displacement or massive human rights violations.
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
Basically, the question we should be asking ourselves concerns the Colombian government. Is the government incapable or unable to protect its citizens or does it have the will to do so?
A paramilitary group might move into an area and displace the local residents. The evacuated lands do not belong to the paramilitaries. Companies can then come and launch extraction operations. We should rather question the government's capacity or unwillingness to do something under those circumstances.
11:50 a.m.
Member, Groupe de recherche sur les activités minières en Afrique
Indeed, this concerns the Colombian government's willingness and capacity, but also the leeway it is given as well as the coherent approach of the international community, in particular of Canada, in supporting its efforts.
Efforts are being made to foster human rights in Columbia. In my opening remarks, I quoted the recommendations that Canada made to Columbia as part of the universal periodic review process at the UN Human Rights Council. I find that the recommendations that Canada made to Columbia are very interesting. The recommendations for Colombia are very positive.
The question is whether the message that was sent is consistent. Would Canada eventually be in a position where its trade interests, as governed by a free trade agreement, would be at odds with its efforts to build a constructive relationship with the Colombian government in order to promote human rights? That is the question that should be at the heart of your deliberations.
11:50 a.m.
Member, Groupe de recherche sur les activités minières en Afrique
Clearly, Columbia is receiving firm, consistent and clear support from the international community, which must strongly urge Columbia to respect human rights and take very specific measures to repair the damages of the past. That is absolutely essential. Moreover, the current Colombian government will eventually be replaced. We have to make sure that agreements signed by the current government do not bind future governments, which could have different human rights policies.
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC
Let's talk about investments. At one point, we heard about an apparently controversial Colombian law that affected investments.
Can you tell us a bit about that piece of legislation?
