Evidence of meeting #15 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colombian.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Moist  National President, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Robert Blackburn  Senior Vice-President, SNC-Lavalin International, SNC-Lavalin Inc.
Alex Neve  Secretary General, Amnesty International

4:50 p.m.

National President, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Paul Moist

Not you. I make that as a general statement.

I want to say something about SNC-Lavalin. We have dealt with SNC-Lavalin, and they're a very practical and at times a very progressive company, no problem with trade unions. The problem is not Canadian companies in Colombia; the problem is Colombian workers don't have the right within the borders of their country to form a trade union.

Canada can't export its own labour legislation to Colombia, but Canada regularly assists countries around the world through the ILO to establish modern labour movements and frameworks for people to exercise their rights. If a worker in Colombia doesn't have the right to exercise their right to join a union, that is not SNC-Lavalin's problem, but why is Canada rushing into a deal with a country like that when we have said at the UN-sanctioned ILO that we support countries around the planet having this baseline respect for workers' rights? Colombia signed those things. Unlike Canada, they don't practise them.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you. Thank you all.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. Easter.

We're down to Mr. Holder. Five minutes, Mr. Holder.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank our guests for your testimony today. I say in all of these representations that I believe that our guests, as you provide testimony, come with the best intentions, from your perspective.

Here's my sense of this now. Firstly, it's rather interesting, we've heard some testimony that we need to hear from some other groups, from other perspectives, to ensure that we have a fulsome sense of all the issues. I just may come up at some point with a list of various other groups that may wish to attend. But I just want to remind the committee, and perhaps advise our guests who may not know this, that we've already passed a motion that allows all testimony as it relates to Colombia free trade to come into play. As a result, that's already present, and it's rather interesting.

Mr. Neve, it's great to have you back, and we appreciate your rigorous return. Three times is a charm, but I'm not sure that we'll have you back again on this particular issue. Perhaps you'll come back for another one. I don't know, but I would welcome that. In fact, there were some very thoughtful things in terms of testimony that you said today.

What I heard from everyone today, which I thought was compelling, is that you all support trade, and we can define what that might mean. I think that's very positive. I do want to make one other comment, before I ask a question. That is, personally I welcome Mr. Brison's contribution in terms of his introduction of a human rights assessment. I think there are some very credible components to it. As Mr. Keddy has indicated, that's currently being reviewed.

I should let you know that last week—and I'm looking at the blues here—we had Mr. Mark Rowlinson, a labour lawyer, who provided some testimony. He said that undeniably there has been a decline in the murder rates since 2001, since President Uribe has come into power. He acknowledges that President Uribe has provided “resources including judges to address labour cases as well as additional funding to the attorney general's office for investigation and prosecution”. To be fair, he does not support the deal in this arrangement, but he did acknowledge those things. I want to remind folks, all of us here, there are a variety of components, while philosophically or ideologically there may be some parts you don't support.

I want to remind all of us here that since 2001, since President Uribe came into power, murders in that country have been reduced dramatically, kidnappings quite dramatically, violence against union leaders dramatically decreased. It seems to me that I don't understand why we don't want to honour those kinds of things. When I had my kids growing up, you know, my Cape Breton mom always said you have to honour good behaviour. It seems to me that if we're not honouring good behaviour and efforts made, then frankly, if we're not even talking to these people because we're not prepared to put in a rules-based system, which is what we're talking about here, then I think we do the people of Colombia a disservice and of course a disadvantage to Canadians. Unless you've forgotten the other piece of this, this is all about trying to do business that supports Colombia but absolutely supports Canadians. I think that's critical.

I have a couple of questions, if you'll allow me, and I guess you have to, because it's my floor.

Mr. Blackburn, you indicated that more engagement of good companies ameliorates behaviour in countries in which you deal. You also indicated that you hired some 9,000 people with skills, and pride in their skills, they otherwise would not have had. What's your sense of what it would mean for you for this free trade agreement in Colombia? What's your sense of how that helps the people of Colombia and obviously helps your company?

4:55 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, SNC-Lavalin International, SNC-Lavalin Inc.

Robert Blackburn

I guess what it would do would be to facilitate our growth in Colombia. As I say, we've been growing quite quickly, not through purchase of a company but just by growth of our own people we've hired on the ground there, and we'll hire more to the extent that's facilitated. It's in a bilaterally supported trade system. That will help us grow there, and as I said at the beginning, we're hoping to use our operating base in Colombia as a base for construction in other parts of Latin American where we're already established but in the mining sectors or in the power sector or something like that. It's a facilitating factor.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

Thank you.

A yes or no question of Mr. Neve, if I may, please, because I've just been cut off.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

That's impossible for Mr. Neve.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

No, actually it can be done.

You expressed great concern with violence in Colombia against labour leaders. My question is, has Amnesty International done any studies on violence against labour leaders done by the FARC?

4:55 p.m.

Secretary General, Amnesty International

Alex Neve

I don't know the answer off the top of my head. Certainly we regularly condemn the FARC for a whole range of human rights abuses. I can't, off the top of my head, point to an instance of our doing so with respect to a labour leader. If it has happened, and we have confirmed and corroborated it, we would absolutely condemn it.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

Chair, could I ask Mr. Neve to undertake to present that back to you, sir, if he's determined that there are these studies?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

He can do that, but your time is up.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

Thank you very much.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Mr. Neve, if you'd be so kind, we would welcome that response from you.

Now we're going to have the last of our questions for this round.

Mr. Pomerleau, you have five minutes.

May 6th, 2010 / 4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank you all for being here today.

I am the member of Parliament for Drummond, the riding including Drummondville. That may be the town of Quebec where you will find the highest number of Colombians since the current policy is to send immigrants in the regions. Very often, they end up in the center of Quebec. Before being elected, I used to work in a riding office where I used to welcome Colombians to help them with immigration problems. Most of them had had to deal with FARC, had received death threats, had been beaten, had seen their children stalked and kidnapped, etc. In short, I heard many terrible stories. This is the first time I meet people who can confirm that to me. In the past, I could only talk to those persons, I never went further than that. That is why I want to congratulate you, Mr. Moist, for having gone there in order to bring to us some information that is credible since it is what you have seen on the ground.

When we want to trade with other countries, we say that it will create jobs. That is the positive aspect, apart from making money. Have you heard people in Colombia say that foreign companies, and Canadian ones, have had as a positive impact in terms of creating jobs in the country? Or have you mostly heard them refer to a negative impact, such as legitimizing the current government?

5 p.m.

National President, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Paul Moist

I met a Colombian trade union leader two weeks ago in Santiago, Chile. He's aware of these hearings going on. He very much hopes and dreams of expanded relations between Colombia and Canada, but he also hopes for the weight of the Government of Canada to improve the lot in life for Colombian workers by holding the Government of Colombia up to a standard of human rights and labour rights that would make trade and expansion of jobs through trade more meaningful.

The answer is yes, they value their relations with Canada, and, like me, want to see expanded relations, but right now their first priority, if they were sitting here, would be to ask for the weight of this committee to recommend to Parliament something akin to where you were 24 months ago in terms of an independent assessment in order to assist the lot of all Colombians.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC

My second question is for Mr. Blackburn. I am a great fan of Lavalin. In my speeches, I regularly refer to the company as one of the Quebec jewels. I know that you are active in more than 100 countries whereas, some 50 years ago, Quebeckers were not even supposed to be able to build a power plant in the North. As far as I'm concerned, Lavalin is a good thing.

However, there is one thing I do not understand. Earlier, someone said that we should not sign in a hurry. We are on the verge of signing something with that country and we have just heard some people tell us that a last independent study should be carried out on the impact on human rights in order to throw some light on those allegations. Would you be ready to wait a few months before Canada signed this deal, so that such a study be carried out?

5 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, SNC-Lavalin International, SNC-Lavalin Inc.

Robert Blackburn

It is not up to me to approve or reject the deal. Parliament and the Government of Canada will do as they wish but...

5 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC

I know but, personally, would you find that acceptable? Why are you in such a hurry?

5 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, SNC-Lavalin International, SNC-Lavalin Inc.

Robert Blackburn

We are there and we will be there. So, the more help we get from both governments to support our business there, the better it will be. By the way, I do not believe that this process is very hurried since this debate started three years ago.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC

If we were to decide to have a study on human rights, and if that were to put close the debate and to allow for the signing the deal, if we were all satisfied with its contents, would you approve of the deal?

5 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, SNC-Lavalin International, SNC-Lavalin Inc.

Robert Blackburn

Let me ask you this: do you really believe that such a study would close debate?

5 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC

If it did not close the debate, it would be because the results are negative. If the results were positive and if things were satisfactory, I do not see why we would not recognize that which would lead us to unexpected places.

5 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, SNC-Lavalin International, SNC-Lavalin Inc.

Robert Blackburn

Honestly, I do not have any opinion on the timing of the deal.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

We have concluded the second round. As we stated at the outset, I think there are members who have obligations, so we're going to terminate this meeting now.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming, and as much as we enjoyed it, I hope we won't have to see you again on this issue.

We're going to continue with witnesses on this matter on Tuesday. It looks as if we're going to have to defer consideration of the U.S. procurement business until after the break and perhaps after we have concluded Bill C-2.

The meeting is adjourned.