International Trade Committee on Dec. 5th, 2013

[Mike Darch]

I would say so, and I'll pass it over to Bruce, who is representing Ottawa.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Go ahead.

[Bruce Lazenby]

I think that's absolutely the expectation. We have to understand as well that Canada is tiny by European standards, and I think one of the attractions, as Mike said, is that we have this historic opportunity to be the first ones to sort of connect the North American market to the European market.

We've often said that Canada is a great stopping off place, it's a great staging area for a move into the rest of North America, and I think an agreement like this would really solidify that.

One case in point, we've got a company.... Canada was recently voted the most reputable country in the world out of 140 countries that were surveyed. So a made-in-Canada product has got premium value, and there are companies that are looking at establishing a presence here, building whatever it is to Canadian standard, and then selling that globally. We think that's going to be important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Brison, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.

Mr. Mann, the investor-state provisions based on the principle of national treatment are not uncommon; in fact, they are pretty central to any trade agreement. They are central to the principles of all WTO agreements, and national treatment is simply that any law or regulation has to treat foreign companies equally with domestic companies, correct?

[Dr. Howard Mann]

Well, no less favourably is the technical language. So it doesn't have to be the same, but the net impact is no less favourable.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

For instance, if we had an environmental law in Canada, say, a province where we've banned fracking, would that apply equally to a foreign company and a domestic company?

[Dr. Howard Mann]

Presumably, yes, as long as it was drafted that way.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Respectfully, you answered the previous questions unequivocally, so I'm seeking—

[Dr. Howard Mann]

You're asking specifically on one particular provision—

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

The question on fracking was, but before you were unequivocal.

[Dr. Howard Mann]

Yes. If the provision was drafted so that it would apply to all companies, that would be correct.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

So federal, provincial, and municipal governments have to craft their legislation and their regulations in a way that's non-discriminatory?

[Dr. Howard Mann]

Correct.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Would you view fracking by someone else, say a foreign company, as being less hazardous to our environment than fracking by a domestic company?

[Dr. Howard Mann]

I presume not.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Okay. So then why are you saying that we could not enforce environmental protection because of national treatments?

[Dr. Howard Mann]

I wasn't speaking specifically to the national treatment issue there. There are a number of other disciplines in the agreement as well, in particular, the fair and equitable treatment one, and with the unknown breadth of that under the current drafting, the risks become higher.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

You mentioned that you feel it may imperil our capacity to move forward with environmental and human health protection. Do you believe there's a delta between the standards in Europe on the environment and health regulations and those in Canada?

[Dr. Howard Mann]

I'm not sure what you mean by a delta there.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

A difference.

[Dr. Howard Mann]

I assume there are variations, but I don't know the significance of them.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Do you believe that when it comes to the Europeans, that somehow when it comes to the environment, they are less rigorous in terms of environmental protection and human health, to use your term?

[Dr. Howard Mann]

No, I don't think so.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Okay.

On the fracking issue that was raised earlier, fracking has been in common use in Canada since the 1960s, but it's banned in Germany, and it's banned in France. So, if anything, if there is a delta, wouldn't it actually be implying that in Europe, perhaps on health standards and on issues of the environment, issues of GMO, etc, that the European are, if anything, ahead of us? So why is there a risk of diluting our environmental protection in Canada if in fact we're signing agreements with a group of countries that probably have higher standards and tougher standards in these cases?