International Trade Committee on March 27th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you.

I think you made the point. Time's gone.

Mr. Cannan.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back, Mr. Neve, it's always good to see you.

To Ms. Kutulakos, welcome to our committee.

I want to jump right into my first question to you, Ms. Kutulakos. It was interesting looking at your bio online. You attended the University of Wisconsin, with a great interest in Mandarin. You went from Taiwan in China to Toronto, Canada. It's a very diverse experience, so I appreciate your input here at the committee today, and I wanted to get a little bit of more input as far as your perspective on TPP is concerned.

You mentioned Canada's need of a strategy for Asia. We do have the global markets action plan. GMAP identifies Canada's strong economic growth not only for now but for the future, and it identifies with our interest in China, Asia. We just had the official announcement earlier this month of the completion of the negotiations in Canada-Korea, and of course there's the gateway that this provides into the Asian market and bilateral discussions are just under way and there's the fifth round of talks this week with Japan.

So we're working towards that direction and we also had at this committee from an organization called the Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada, Mr. Yuen Pau Woo. He talked about the benefits of the TPP, and representing the riding in the Okanagan of Kelowna—Lake Country in British Columbia, there were the benefits, obviously, for the forestry industry, seafood. He talked about tariffs being reduced on agriculture, specifically horticulture—blueberries, cherries from my riding, ice wine.

An interesting point is that I was advised by the Wine Institute that Korea has the highest price point of red wine in the world, so there's a great opportunity for expanding there too. I'm just wondering what is your organization's relation to the Asia Pacific Foundation? Do you work together?

[Sarah Kutulakos]

We work very closely with them. In fact, they have a deep research capability that is not inherently built into our own organization, so we do collaborate with them. We will also consult with them frequently on issues of mutual concern. Many of the issues they have highlighted in their national conversation on Asia and some of the work they've done to underpin that gets to some of the elements of what an Asia strategy or a China strategy might include. They take some of the good work that's already being done, such as the global markets action plan, but they think about it in a very comprehensive fashion, going beyond trade and investment to include people flows, education. I think this ultimately results in perhaps a better balance and healthier attitudes toward certain Asian countries than what may exist, based on some of the polling they've done in Canada.

One of the things we find when we look at their surveys is that in Canada, in general, the average Canadian is afraid of a place like China. We see it even in terms of many companies that go in saying that they're afraid for their intellectual property or that it's just so different from their traditional markets like the U.S. Part of an overall strategy, for example the Australian white paper that Ailish mentioned, is helping to think about a country's overall attitude toward a place like China.

A few months ago I was in New Zealand, which is, of course, one of the few developed countries that has a free trade agreement with China, and I noted with interest a very broad-based, healthy dialogue about China. It would come up in conversation—not positively, not negatively—in terms of what was happening with investment in farming or exports of lobster or whatever. There was an element to it that I haven't seen here in Canada. I think the government can take a lead on that.

I would also note that the global markets action plan is very ambitious. It's important. To go from 11,000 exporting companies to 21,000 is not an insignificant task. It's going to take the help of many organizations beyond the federal government to get there, but we have to get there.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I agree it's very ambitious. We've gone from five trade agreements with five countries to 43 now, and we continue to check off one a day. Minister Fast is travelling the world, and I noticed Prime Minister Harper today over in Europe. We have the CETA, which is the most comprehensive agreement that Canada has ever entered into.

I'd like to segue to Mr. Neve. I know that part of that was the extensive agreement on labour and environmental aspects and human rights. I don't think there's anybody in this room or in Parliament who's not caring and compassionate and wants to make sure that we have our values of human rights respected around the world. As a matter of fact, a similar trade committee is heading to Peru next week to tour a mine. We want to make sure that those values are upheld and to do what we can as Canadians to ensure the proud Canadian reputation we have is respected around the world. So it's with great interest...and how we can work together, continue to respect the agreements.

You alluded to Colombia. When Mr. Peter Julian from the NDP was on the trade committee we went to Colombia. We went to a UN schoolroom, to classrooms to talk to the students. Then we met with some of the local individuals in a shanty town. Connie Watson, a CBC reporter, followed us. The issue we asked them about was whether they felt we should provide this trade agreement to open up doors or just back away.

So my question is to you, Mr. Neve. Do you think it's better that we engage developing countries like Colombia and other partners in the TPP, or do we isolate and trade just with countries that have human rights values more similar to Canada's?

[Alex Neve]

I want to be very clear that Amnesty International, be it with respect to Colombia, and again with what we're saying today regarding the TPP countries, is not saying do not trade, do not do business. In many respects we don't have a position one way or the other on that particular piece, on who Canada should be doing business with, in what way, and in what industries. What we do say is to please ensure that trade policy goes ahead and business is conducted in a fashion that is, to the maximum extent possible, going to promote and improve and safeguard human rights, and at a minimum, is going to safeguard the ways in which we know that irresponsible business practices—and they arise in some sectors more than others—can either directly cause or indirectly contribute to human rights violations.

I think Colombia is a very good example of that. We never opposed the free trade deal. All along we said let's make sure that there are strong components to this deal that are going to attend to those human rights issues. We welcomed the addition, therefore, of the human rights assessment process, which was groundbreaking and unprecedented. As I say, we have some disappointment, which we hope can still be turned around, in terms of how it's now being implemented. The real opportunity and potential of that groundbreaking possibility isn't being realized, and it really needs to be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I think we share that hope in opportunity as well. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Mr. Pacetti, the floor is yours.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming forward today. It's an interesting discussion, different points of view, coming from different angles, but that's what Canada's all about.

I guess my first question is for you, Mr. Neve.

I may be a little bit naive, but maybe you can help me. When you say that the trials are actually unfair, how do you determine that? Do you have people there? I'm asking that because this morning I was watching Radio-Canada, and they had statistics on people being executed worldwide. Fewer countries are executing people, but certain countries, like Iran and Iraq, are actually executing more people. Yet there are no statistics available for China. If they can't get statistics, how can you get documentation or proof that these trials are not being fairly run?

[Alex Neve]

That report you heard was actually based on our report of today, so I know it very well. The China situation, I think, is very interesting. We do this every year. We release what we call the annual death penalty statistics. Obviously it's a grim report.

We used to include China in the statistics. It was always a shot in the dark estimation, our best guess as to how many executions were happening, because executions in China are considered a matter of national state security. There is no public release of how many people are being executed. The executions are not reported publicly.

We've gotten to a point where we felt our estimations weren't—

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

My time is limited. I don't have as much time as the other people. I'm just wondering in terms of the trials, how are those determined, whether they are fair or unfair?

[Alex Neve]

For us, we work by international fair trial standards. It's all enshrined in international human rights treaties.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

But do you have somebody there that witnesses...?

[Alex Neve]

It differs from country to country. Some countries don't allow Amnesty on the ground. China doesn't allow Amnesty researchers on the ground.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Specifically, for example, the three countries that you stated are in the TPP group of negotiating are Vietnam, Mexico, and Colombia. Would you have somebody...?

[Alex Neve]

Those are three countries that we do have access to. In fact we have an Amnesty International team that's on the ground in Vietnam right now.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Would you have a scale or a determining minimum requirement to determine what those trials...?

[Alex Neve]

As I said, we work by international standards that governments themselves have set out in international human rights treaties and those are quite detailed.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

On a question of a different vein, you're saying that the free trade agreements should highlight human rights situations. Have you tried to get support from other stakeholders, for example, business groups, or anybody that has things at stake with free trade? Or is this something that you guys are just going at by yourselves?

[Alex Neve]

We're certainly not doing it by ourselves. There's a wide sector. There's the trade union movement, many civil society organizations, religious groups, human rights organizations, that have called for this approach of, number one, enshrining human rights obligations in the deal itself; and then number two, backing it up through a human rights assessment process.

Engagement with the business community has been mixed. I would say that we very often get a positive response from the business community. At the highest level, yes of course, we agree with you that trade should be done in a way that's good for human rights. We've found it more difficult to get agreement around some of the specific, concrete pieces that would give some teeth to that, like a human rights impact assessment.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

A business in Canada would have to withhold or meet certain standards, whereas their competition in other countries would not, and I don't see why the business would support your cause or help you defend your cause. I'm a little bit worried that you weren't even aware of these webinar and consultation processes that have been going on during the TPP negotiations that are being made available for everybody. I'm wondering if the government is doing their job or not. I'm not going to blame you guys but there's something wrong here. There's a miscommunication somewhere.

[Alex Neve]

I think that there could be a significant improvement in the dissemination of information.

I do want to highlight that this, of course, is not a recommendation we simply make to Canadian business. Amnesty pursues this globally because we very much agree that, when it comes to human rights, what we want to do is establish a level playing field right around the world, so that all countries have the same kinds of obligations when they're doing business with another country.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I have a question for Ms. Kutulakos.

You mentioned that a few countries have free trade agreements. Do you know which ones?

[Sarah Kutulakos]

I believe that it's New Zealand and Iceland, not any big ones. Those are of the developed countries.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

But you did state that other countries are pursuing China more actively, so where does that come from? What are they doing that Canada's not? Besides the fact that the Prime Minister is not visiting China on a regular basis....