International Trade Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Madam Chair, I forgot to tell you that I will be sharing my time with Mr. Seeback.

Mr. Soule, since 2014, foreign steel's market share in Canada has increased from 19% to 39%. What can you tell us about that?

[George Soule]

I can definitely say that's a problem. Some of that comes through dumping—the illegal dumping from China. As I said, some of that is even coming from Ukraine. China is obviously the biggest problem we have.

More support domestically for our steel industry is crucial, and that comes from both greening it but also from ensuring.... I think there are lots of things we can do through procurement. We've often stood for ensuring that government procurement requires not only Canadian workers but also Canadian materials to be used, whether that's building bridges, buildings or whatever. It's all well and good to have Canadian workers—and obviously we support that—but those materials being Canadian as well would be a big start.

As well, it's doing what we can to shut down that illegal dumping of the dirty steel and aluminum and cement that we see coming from other countries.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have one minute and 30 seconds, Mr. Seeback.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a motion that I would like to move.

Madam Clerk, would you please distribute that motion to the committee?

I move:

That the committee recommend to the House that it be granted the power during its consideration of Bill C-57, An Act to implement the 2023 Free Trade Agreement between Canada and Ukraine; in light of the fact that the Liberal Government granted a waiver exemption to allow for the export of a turbine from Canada that was then used to export Russian gas; to expand the scope of the study of the Bill in order to facilitate Canadian LNG and other energy expertise to further assist Ukraine; and to support expanded munitions production in Canada; and increasing munition and weapons exports to Ukraine and support the development of weapons and munitions manufacturing capabilities in Ukraine by Canadian industry.

I'd now like to speak to that motion, Madam Chair.

We are in a situation where certain members of the government are suggesting that Conservative members do not support Ukraine because we have a principled objection to certain things that are contained within the free trade agreement, one of which is a price on carbon, which is not in any of our other existing free trade agreements, and is, in fact, not in any free trade agreement Ukraine has ever signed. It's the first time it's ever been in that.

We think that there are many ways that this trade agreement could be enhanced to help Ukraine in the middle of the war, so I'm going to start with this first of all.

We are being told that we are hurting Ukraine by voting against a bad trade deal. What, in fact, has happened is that this Liberal government granted a waiver exemption to allow for the export of a gas turbine that was used to transport Russian gas. Think about that for a second. What funds Putin's war machine? What helps fund his war, his illegal, outrageous and barbaric war in Ukraine? It's gas, the revenues Russia gets from the sale of gas.

The Liberal government granted a waiver to export a turbine to help them do it. Then they have the audacity to say that we are hurting Ukraine on a vote that was inconsequential, because this bill has been referred to the committee. It's here. I don't know if Liberal members know that, but the free trade agreement is here at committee. The vote didn't hurt anything.

We are His Majesty's loyal opposition. We get to oppose bad pieces of legislation or bad trade agreements. When you insert a carbon tax, carbon price or carbon leakage into a trade agreement for the first time, we get to object, which is what we've done. It doesn't hurt Ukraine. The deal came to committee. The deal's most likely going to pass the House—the other parties are supporting it—because they all also have a carbon price—carbon tax—obsession. All the parties in the House of Commons are obsessed with taxing Canadians through carbon into poverty.

I agree that trade deals are about exports. Let's import and let's export, but you know what we shouldn't export? The misery of the carbon tax, the misery of the carbon tax that has two million Canadians going to a food bank in one month alone. Never in the history of Canada has this happened. Seven million Canadians are now cutting back on food because they can't afford to eat. We just heard from the pork producers, and the carbon tax is making pork more expensive. Why? They have to heat their barns. This can cost tens of thousands of dollars in carbon tax every single month. We should not be exporting that.

What's amazing is that the foreign affairs committee did a report in February 2023 wherein they recommended that there not be a waiver granted to Siemens to export that turbine. Guess what. The government did it anyway. When you look at what's hurt Ukraine, what's hurt Ukraine was exporting that turbine to give some more blood money to Vladimir Putin in his war.

There's a real opportunity here, Madam Chair. One of the things that Ukraine desperately needs is energy security in this war, and there's an article here, a very well-researched article on the issue, and one of the things it says right in the article is:

As Ukraine rebuilds and adapts to a new geopolitical reality, achieving energy security will be instrumental to put the country back on its feet—

What is not included in this free trade agreement is anything on LNG co-operation or energy security co-operation. This motion is going to allow us to expand the scope of the review of this to include these things. If Liberals actually want to make up for the fact that they exported a turbine that helped Vladimir Putin, they can now vote to expand the scope of this bill to allow for there to be chapters on energy security and LNG co-operation, which will actually help Ukraine.

The second part of this motion is with respect to munitions and weapons. Let me tell you this. Canada has not increased its exports of munitions to Ukraine from day one. Three thousand shells a month is where they started, and 3,000 is where we are today. There has been no increase whatsoever. Ukraine goes through 6,000 shells a day, every day. We are not increasing our exports of these. That should be something in this agreement.

How do we co-operate to increase the number of shells available to Ukraine? There's actually a formula in war. The number of artillery shells you can use reduces the number of lives you lose on the battlefield. By voting for this we are going to find a way to increase Canadian exports of munitions, which will directly benefit the Ukrainian armed forces and save Ukrainian lives, as opposed to exporting a turbine, which helped Vladimir Putin.

We could also absolutely be helping with weapons. In fact, in March of 2022 there was a Conservative proposal that we would send decommissioned LAVs to Ukraine to help in the war. Guess where they ended up. It was on the scrap heap. The Conservatives recommended exporting three hundred fighting vehicles to Ukraine to help them in the war. The Liberal government did not do that.

Madam Chair, the Liberals have a chance to redeem themselves. A similar motion came to this committee, and all Liberals voted against it. I was prepared to move a motion like this on the floor of the House of Commons today, but—guess what—you had to put it on notice. They played a little procedural game so the motion wouldn't be able to be debated today. The rubber hits the road today, Madam Chair.

Will these Liberals actually do something to help Ukraine or will they vote this down again?

I expect that's what they will do, because they're all talk and no action.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Sidhu, please go ahead on the motion at the moment.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to put this on the record. This is another veiled delay tactic designed to save face after the Conservatives voted against the trade agreement yesterday.

This is simply ridiculous. They continue to be called out by the business community, the trade community, industry groups, media, the UCC, Ukrainians and many other stakeholders across the board. This is something that we've heard from witnesses, who all spoke in favour of this. They said they were in support of this trade agreement being ratified as soon as possible. There are many benefits to be seen by industry groups across the board. It's not only going to help Canadian businesses. It's going to help Ukraine rebuild.

Minister Ng was at the Rebuild Ukraine Business Conference on Monday and Tuesday, and she also heard directly from stakeholders who came up to her and thanked Canada for the support because, frankly, this is what Ukraine has asked for. This is what the business community in Canada has been in favour of, and we are going to continue to push forward with this.

I don't know what the Conservatives' obsession with carbon pricing is when these are the same folks who had this in their campaign promises in the 2021 election. Many of their members were talking very proudly about carbon pricing and the impacts it can have: to save our environment, to keep future generations safe, to provide clean drinking water and to make sure we are able to fight pollution. Here you have the Conservatives frankly obsessed with something that's not even factual. They're making things up on the fly as they go along.

It is important for those who are listening and those who are here today to see this. It's just a veiled tactic designed to save face and waste time.

Ukrainians are asking for us to be there. We'll continue to be there. Canada's FTA with Ukraine has very little to do with the adoption and development of a carbon tax with Ukraine. In fact, Ukraine has been using carbon pricing for many years and now with alignments with the EU emissions trading system. Since 2011 Ukraine put forward a carbon tax that applies to CO2 emissions from stationary sources in the industry, power and building sectors, so this is nothing new. In November 2018, as we heard, their parliament decided to steadily increase the carbon tax rate.

It is important that we put on record that it's nothing new to Ukrainians. I'm not sure where this fake outrage is coming from.

We spoke about defence assistance to Ukraine. Canada has provided billions of dollars in defence assistance, from Leopard tanks to armoured vehicles, missile defence systems and training for officers. In fact, we'll continue to be there, as the Prime Minister said, as our government has said, but it's the Conservatives who are delaying support to Ukraine. It is important for the public to see this. I don't know how Conservative members with the Ukrainian diaspora can go out and speak to the Ukrainian community after this, after they are blocking support for Ukraine.

We see it. Industry groups see it. Business groups see it, and I think it is important for those who are watching today to see this fake outrage. I don't know where it's coming from. It seems similar to what's happening in the U.S. with the far right, but they need to actually put their thoughts on the stage because carbon pricing, hiding behind carbon pricing or a carbon tax, is not the way to go, because we all know that Ukraine knows about carbon pricing. They have been using carbon pricing for many years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I have Mr. Miao and Mr. El-Khoury.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I guess it's no surprise that Conservatives are going to bring this motion back again. For us to redeem ourselves.... It shows from the vote how supportive they are of this modernized CUFTA agreement. Let's remind members that this modernized CUFTA agreement was discussed prior to the war outbreak. I don't think any of us would agree that we support this ongoing war conflict that's happening between Russia and Ukraine. We want them to end this as soon as possible. The focus is on looking at the long term and seeing how we can help Ukraine rebuild.

I'm not supporting this motion, definitely. For us to redeem ourselves, we should continue to move forward with this legislation and make sure that this passes through the House as soon as possible so that we can help with the rebuilding efforts of Ukraine. Hearing from my community, the UCC and the Ukrainian community in Richmond Centre, everyone understands how important this free trade agreement is. We are looking forward to speeding up this process to make sure that it's in place so that more relations between our countries can be established and help with the rebuilding effort.

I want to put this on the record as well: The deputy minister of economy and trade negotiator of Ukraine spoke highly of this agreement and how this agreement will rebuild Ukrainian confidence. Also, in Toronto specifically, this agreement gives more opportunity for SMEs in Canada and Ukraine. This is exactly why Canada and Ukraine are interested in moving this modernized CUFTA agreement forward.

On how we can grow our small and mid-sized businesses into international businesses, I feel this is very important for not just our local or national economy but the global economy as well.

I'm going to end it on that note. I really hope that the Conservatives are not playing games. Let's move forward with this new modernized CUFTA agreement. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. El-Khoury, I know we have you on the list, but I'm watching the clock quite carefully.

Do you mind if....

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

You're the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I think it's important that we deal with the issue, and I cannot stay beyond one o'clock.

Mr. Seeback has introduced a motion.

Is there any further debate on the motion?

Not seeing any debate, we'll read out the motion again:

That the committee recommend to the House that it be granted the power during its consideration of Bill C-57, An Act to implement the 2023 Free Trade Agreement between Canada and Ukraine; in light of the fact that the Liberal Government granted a waiver exemption to allow for the export of a turbine from Canada that was then used to export Russian gas; to expand the scope of the study of the Bill in order to facilitate Canadian LNG and other energy expertise to further assist Ukraine; and to support expanded munitions production in Canada; and increasing munition and weapons exports to Ukraine and support the development of weapons and munitions manufacturing capabilities in Ukraine by Canadian industry.

We will have a vote.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'd like to request a recorded division.

(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

To our witnesses, thank you for your valuable information and your patience today. It was very much appreciated.

I move adjournment.