Evidence of meeting #28 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nathalie Des Rosiers  Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
Yves Le Bouthillier  President, Law Commission of Canada
John Carpay  Executive Directeur, Canadian Constitution Foundation
John Williamson  Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
Chantal Tie  Member, National Legal Committee, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Rénald Rémillard  Executive Director, Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de Common Law Inc.
Christian Monnin  President, Federation of Associations of French-speaking Jurists of Common Law

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

No, you won't make me waste my four minutes.

The Court Challenges Program has nothing to do with a form of justice that gives a response. This program gives an individual a chance to appear before a judge in a given system, unless the government does not believe in our system. In that case, we shouldn't have courts of justice or judges, and we should abolish lawyers. The government, through Minister Baird, clearly told the House of Commons that it wouldn't pay people to challenge its laws because they're perfect and must be complied with.

If that's the case, if we want to save money, I'd like the taxpayers' representative to tell us whether that's indeed what he wants. Do you want us to completely abolish our democratic system in Canada? Is that the case?

Otherwise, I'll propose something to you, since we have to save taxpayers' money. When a citizen appears before the court and wins his case, the government won't be entitled to appeal from the judge's decision because it would be using taxpayers' money to do so.

As Francophones and Acadians, we represent a minority that was deported by boat to Louisiana in 1755. When Louisiana suffered damage as a result of Hurricane Katrina last year, we didn't even help in the reconstruction. That's what it is to be a minority. That's what happened to us.

Let's take the example of the Francophones in the riding of Acadie—Bathurst whom the government wanted to transfer to Miramichi, where 70% of the population is Anglophone. It was through the Court Challenges Program that we were able to make ourselves heard and to win that case. The Francophones of Prince Edward Island won their case concerning their schools. It was also through the Court Challenges Program that that was done.

I'm asking you the question honestly. I know you support this. I'd like to know from the people who want to save taxpayers' money if they're opposed to it.

5:25 p.m.

Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation

John Williamson

I've heard that abolishing this program today will mean the end of the charter, the end of democracy, and now the deportation of francophones. That is ridiculous. I also heard another member—

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

That's not what I said.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

You asked him a question. He's trying to reply.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

He has made a statement that I don't agree with.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Have respect for the witness.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Have respect for the member of Parliament who has the right to be here.

I am not saying we abolish all of that. Are you saying that the people have no right to defend themselves, that they're on their own against the government?

5:25 p.m.

Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation

John Williamson

People have every right to go before the courts on their own. That's what citizens do every single day in this country.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Against the government?

5:25 p.m.

Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation

John Williamson

I heard Mr. Ménard suggest that these groups that receive tax money should go out and fight to ensure that the Conservatives don't receive a majority. So now we're advocating that groups go out there and fight the government because they're receiving tax dollars, and if they want to keep receiving those tax dollars.... That's just wrong.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Who paid your expenses to be here?

5:25 p.m.

Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation

John Williamson

It's democratic—

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

I'm sorry, it's my question. Who paid your expenses to be here--the taxpayers?

5:25 p.m.

Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation

John Williamson

Citizens donate to us voluntarily.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Who paid for your flight to come here?

5:25 p.m.

Executive Directeur, Canadian Constitution Foundation

John Carpay

The taxpayers of Canada.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Thank you. I have no more questions.

5:25 p.m.

Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation

John Williamson

I walked up from 130 Albert, so I can assure you the cost to the taxpayer was very low. It was zero.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Godin. Your time is up.

Mr. Thompson.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

A couple of questions were previously asked by my colleagues from the Liberal Party and the Bloc. I'd better not say the two Johns, but Mr. Carpay and Mr. Williamson never had a chance to respond, and I'd like them to do so.

5:25 p.m.

Executive Directeur, Canadian Constitution Foundation

John Carpay

Can you refresh my memory on the questions?

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

There was one in particular from Mr. Murphy.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

What are we going to do to save linguistic rights?

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Yes.

5:25 p.m.

Executive Directeur, Canadian Constitution Foundation

John Carpay

What I hear repeatedly is that this program helps the poor impoverished individuals who are just unable to get any money anywhere. First of all, it's not true, because the plaintiff we're supporting, Chief Mountain, has been litigating with voluntary supporters. I think that's something that a lot of people miss. There's a difference in voluntarily contributing to a cause you believe in. The money that our foundation has received to support the equality rights of Chief Mountain has come from people who agree with that cause. The money that the court challenges program hands out is taken from people who agree and also from people who disagree. You only get money from the court challenges program if you agree with their particular vision of justice. If you don't agree with it, you're not going to get the money. It's wrong to force taxpayers to advocate only one side.

For example, regarding the list of cases that Mr. Williamson mentioned, the court challenges program will fund you if you go into court to argue to change the traditional definition of marriage, but if you want to go into court to argue to preserve that definition, you're not going to get money. The court challenges program will fund you if you subscribe to their particular brand of feminism, but if you're with REAL Women of Canada and have a different idea about women's rights, you're not going to get the money.

I think it's dishonest to suggest that people have no other recourse, because they do. They can raise money from other people, as we have done to keep our litigation alive in support of equality rights.