Justice Committee on Jan. 30th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Bélanger, the prosecutor's position.

[Claude Bélanger]

I'll tell you one thing: I agree with Mr. Ouellette that somebody who makes it his calling to become an expert witness has to spend 24 hours a day on it, for the simple reason that if he doesn't, he's not an expert. He's not up to date on whatever is happening.

So in order to become an expert witness, you have to have, by definition, knowledge about a subject that is higher than that of the average citizen's. That is an expert.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Doesn't the court designate that witness as an expert witness?

[Claude Bélanger]

Yes, the court will do that if the witness provides the court with the groundwork to be declared an expert witness.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Bélanger.

Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you all for coming. It's very excellent information. I'd be happy to hear, if any of you wrote to the committee, about how we could help organizations cooperate and coordinate, or about other tools you need to catch organized criminals.

I want to go to the other end of it for now. One of the concerns is for the victims and for the safety of Canadians. Given that everyone's going to get out, we haven't heard too much on how to make people safe after these people are released.

I'd like to ask Mr. Delva if he'd like to comment on whether he agrees with Myron's last comment that we shouldn't blame crime on poverty.

[Harry Delva]

I obviously agree. You can't blame poverty for everything that doesn't go right. When you talk about street gangs, for the moment, unfortunately, it's sort of the whole system that should be reviewed. That means that, today, these youths unfortunately can't find their place. It's not necessarily a poverty problem. A number of these youths have parents and are growing up normally, but the aura surrounding street gangs and all these video clips encourage them to follow that fashion. It's no longer a poverty issue, it's a fashion issue. Since they have nothing to lose and nothing to hang on to, they'll obviously continue following that fashion.

There must be a system that enables them to grow up, to continue learning and to see themselves as part of this society. I very often observe youths in the Saint-Michel neighbourhood, and I sit down with them to ask them what they want to be later on. They don't have an answer to my question. They say they want to be a doctor or a lawyer, while adding “but” after their answer, because they think there's a limit and their place isn't there.

As long as there is this barrier, we'll unfortunately have a problem. These youths have the impression that street gangs offer them this opportunity. That means that, if you join a gang, you can become someone, drive a Mercedes and have a lot of money. Of course, there's a price to pay, but it's much smaller for them. That's how they perceive matters.

Criminal youths who start entering gangs at the age of 15, 16 or 17 change levels once they reach the age of 24 or 25. They're no longer at the street gang level: they become something else. For example, they want to become bikers. They want to go somewhere else. For them, belonging to a gang first means being able to control or protect their area.

Once they've passed that stage and move on to another level, they no longer necessarily consider themselves as belonging to street gangs. They belong to another organization, such as the Hells Angels or another group, because that's a lot more honourable in their minds and it's the proof that they've changed levels. Perhaps the problem is to be able to understand what goes on in the minds of these youths. Men 30 years of age and over who belong to a gang no longer wear colours and don't consider themselves as belonging to a gang.

To get back to the question, although poverty is a factor, it's not just a poverty problem. We have to make room for these youths so that they can see themselves doing something else.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

When they're incarcerated, does the incarceration help or hinder them? Do they come out with better connections and more training to be criminals, or are there good treatments in the penitentiaries to solve the problems you're talking about--psychological or whatever--and to solve their desire to be involved in crime?

[Harry Delva]

In general, as a result of the programs they've taken in prison, youths have very good intentions when they get out. They've learned something and want to do things differently. But when they enter the population, we have nothing more to offer them. We're afraid of them. When we talk about street gangs, we may be talking about young blacks who have an education, who have a diploma. There are no jobs for them.

We have absolutely nothing to offer a young black who gets out of prison and enters the community. He's somewhat obliged to go back with his peers. His peers will follow him for a month or two, ask him what he's doing and tell him that he still has his place. They'll put him at another level, since he's proven himself. They'll also tell him that, even though he was arrested, he's ultimately not the problem: he paid for someone else. Since he was quiet and did his time, they'll add that he has a run ahead of him and he can keep on going.

Even though the system offers some assistance, this youth has nothing to do two or three months later. He hasn't worked and can't even find a place to live because his parents have disowned him. So he finds himself with a big problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Delva.

Ms. Freeman.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Mr. Delva, you say that these children have a big problem. Earlier, we talked about five- or six-year-old children who have already chosen sides with the Reds or the Blues, whose future is already laid out. You work in this environment, and you see them heading toward that quite sad career. In your opinion, at what point could we intervene to try to offset this phenomenon? There's always talk about depression, but I should emphasize that there are also the Haitian and Quebec cultures and the American dream, which isn't the same thing as—

[Harry Delva]

We've been clear about this today: when we say street gangs, it's no longer just Haitians who are in question, but all youths.

We have to start intervening with youths from the age of five or six, when they haven't yet understood that, since one clan doesn't like them too much, they should turn to the other one. At that age, children are with their parents. The role that parents play shouldn't be forgotten. Parents also have to be trained to enable them to understand what their children are going through. This is the perfect age to supervise youths. If you observe what happens in the school yards, you'll see that youths of five or six are already leading the group. We find that harmless because they're five or six years old, but they already know that they have friends, that they're the ones who are leading and that they are stronger. This way of doing things starts there and is transposed to the secondary level.

When youths start secondary school, I've realized that it is unfortunately too late because theirs minds are already formed. They already know that there's something, an attraction that makes them think they can become this or that. However, at five or six, they don't yet have that attraction and can still listen to what their parents tell them.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

You assume that the parents are able to supervise their children, which doesn't seem to be necessarily the case of the parents of the youths we're concerned with.

[Harry Delva]

The parents are...?

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

You seem to say that the parents are able to supervise their children, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

[Harry Delva]

Many parents have enormous difficulty supervising their children, for lack of time or because they aren't there. We've realized that a lot of parents unfortunately work between roughly 15 and 18 hours a day. That means that, when they finish one work day, they start another. A number are forced to work evenings, which means they leave between three and five o'clock in the morning. When the youth gets home at three o'clock in the afternoon, he is alone, or with an older brother. Unfortunately, the parents aren't there. We talk about single-parent families, but, even when both parents are present, one is already working outside the home and the other is still driving. For example, a taxi driver works 15 or 20 hours, while the mother works as a nurse.

So there's a lack because parents aren't there and can't supervise their children. That's why I say that, if we can help these parents supervise their children, that will enable them to be more present and to continue helping and supervising them.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

All right.

I'd like to ask Mr. Ouellette a question.

Mr. Ouellette, you mentioned that we in Quebec proceed in a broader fashion with regard to gangsterism, whereas, in Manitoba and Ontario, that seems to be more difficult since plea bargaining is often used. The more we listened to you, the more we realized that people acted in one way in Quebec and another in Manitoba, and that there was a flagrant lack of exchange and standard procedures in Vancouver.

What exactly do you propose? You closed your presentation by saying that we didn't need to change the existing laws because they're adequate. The laws in place are fine; we're here to make the laws, but it seems that nothing works.

[Sgt Guy Ouellette]

It's not that nothing works; it's that we have to use the tools we have and to make the most of them.

As a result of Bill C-10, you're in the forefront with regard to firearms, which is a Canadian, indeed global problem. You are lucky to be at the head of the parade and say that, for offences, things will happen in such and such a way. There's an aggravating factor with criminal organizations.

There are one or two attorneys in Quebec who specialize in street gangs. As for those who specialize in bikers, they belong to a small group called the Organized Crime Prosecutions Bureau.

We indeed all have to work together and acknowledge that we have a problem and that we'll try to improve our communications, to exchange, for example, with the guys from Manitoba.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

That's what I understand.

[Sgt Guy Ouellette]

For example, Randall talks with the attorney and asks why he's withdrawn his gangsterism charges. There's a reason for everything. You have to talk and to ensure that the Criminal Code of Canada is uniformly enforced, not because we passed an anti-gang law because there was a biker war in Quebec and because it was a bit different at the time, or because we now want to pass Bill C-10 because things are getting a lot worse in Toronto, where a lot of weapons-related murders have been committed. There's a firearms problem in Alberta, in Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver, but there's big pressure in Toronto because there was an innocent victim. There were 29 innocent victims during the biker war, and that happened in Quebec. Perhaps we should disregard these things and say to ourselves that, in Canada, we have a Criminal Code, a Charter, laws to enforce, and that it would be preferable that we all work toward the same end.

A Supreme Court judgment in the Stinchcombe case concerns the disclosure of evidence. In the context of the biker bill, the criminals have the 375 CDs concerning disclosure of evidence. In Winnipeg, in the context of Project Defence, the criminals have the 15 CDs also concerning disclosure of evidence. However, when I, as a police officer or expert witness, have to file an application concerning gangsterism and know what was seized in Winnipeg, I have trouble getting what I need, madam. In Ontario, when a request is made in the Lindsay-Bonner affair, a search warrant is necessary in order to conduct a search of the police in Delta, British Columbia, whereas all the bandits in the village have the information. It's nonsensical. We must not give up. We're talking about these things, and that does some good.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

That's true.

[Sgt Guy Ouellette]

But we have to say to ourselves that we'll continue moving forward, if we can change certain things. Perhaps it would be interesting to establish a central depot in Ottawa where all disclosed evidence, which would be available for all police investigations, would be forwarded.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

You're proposing that a common base be created?

[Sgt Guy Ouellette]

Yes. The criminals have this kind of system. In Quebec—

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Indeed, and at Mr. Richmond's office, it seems they're starting to say that this exchange of intelligence is also taking place. It's for investigations that you don't have—