Justice Committee on March 22nd, 2007

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Mrs. Scanlan, you mentioned this, and it is something this other police officer and I talked about: the toll this takes on people who have to work with it.

Ms. Kohan, you mentioned the sampling of the evidence. This officer said to me, “Look, I see this stuff all day long.” It's stuff that probably people around this committee haven't seen, so we very much are looking at things in the abstract on what's on the Internet. Even the judges who are hearing cases do not want to see all the evidence. They want to see a sampling of the evidence, but they don't want to see everything the police officer has to see.

This is all in the context of this bill of child sexual exploitation. Someone hit that nail on the head. A 14- or 15-year-old does not have to prove that he or she did not consent. That's what this bill does. It says that our 14- and 15-year-olds are off limits to people, whether they're in Canada or coming to Canada to have relationships with teenagers. It says that 14-year-olds and 15-year-olds are off limits.

Perhaps someone could comment on that, on the toll this takes on police officers who have to deal with it every day.

[Det Sgt Kim Scanlan]

We monitor it very carefully. In fact, I think most police agencies across Canada right now are recognizing that our officers need support, so psychological support is being built into our governance and what we do and how we have them there--but it's etched in their memories, whether it's an audio or a visual image, and I don't think they'll ever forget it.

What we do now is try to get judges to see this in the courts. You're right, they're really averse to it; they don't want to, but we tend to find that those who do sit and listen give the better judgments--a greater sentencing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Go ahead, Mr. Frizzell.

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

On the note of future witnesses, I've been a police officer for 17 years now, and I've only been doing this for a year. I've worked in serious crime my entire career. I had no idea, no concept, of how bad it is and how many predators were out there wanting young children or young teens--no concept.

When you're talking to future witnesses, I would ask that you ensure they have done their homework, and that they're not talking from an emotional or “this affects me, so therefore it's bad” type of view. This is for the greater good of our children.

I'll tell you that there's one group that is very interested in this debate and is hoping that you don't change the age of protection. I would ask you to keep that in mind as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Frizzell and Mr. Moore.

Mr. Murphy is next.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am relatively new to this. I am, however, a father of three young girls. I was in civic politics for 12 years, so I understand community mores. I understand police forces. We had a municipal force and then we had the RCMP. I lived all that, and I've never heard a police officer, especially one representing a group, use the phrase “We don't have the support of our courts”. I'm going to follow up with that privately through correspondence.

I understand that there was a res gestae here, and an emotional angle and a context, but be assured, Mr. Griffin, I want to follow up with that and not waste time, as we seem to have done a little bit here--wasted a little bit of time on the politics and the emotion. It's an emotional issue; I understand that.

As I understand it, this bill comes here for the first time with a close-in-age exemption of five years. I may be wrong about that, and I'll stand to be corrected, but it makes it very easy, from my point of view, to support. I think we should just bring a consensual motion, forget the rest of the testimony, and pass the bill. That's what I think we should do, and I might bring a motion to that effect, Mr. Chairman.

On some of the facts, Mr. Comartin, who I think was.... I mean, I'll fight the NDP any time, but I think he was unfairly attacked for saying that it would be nice to have some facts. I understand that there's a dark hole there for which you can't get the statistics.

I think it is important to mention that saying that Canada is behind all of the other industrialized countries on this issue is not really true because France, Italy and Germany, for example, which are western industrialized countries, have similar rules and a similar age of consent. We are now about average and we are turning in the direction of the United States and of Australia. That is good, but it is good to state the truth.

I understand that we're right in the middle. I understand that the Criminal Code was enacted at the age of 12 and things change. This is where we are.

I'd frankly like to know this, especially from the police investigating witnesses. The context of this seems to be that we're facing increased danger. I don't doubt that.

As long as my little girls are on Club Penguin, I'm okay. I understand that. I don't have shares in Club Penguin, but I should. I think they take something from my credit card every month.

The point is that it's the Internet and it's computers. What more could we do legislatively for future work to clamp down on it, whether it's a telecommunications thing or resources?

I heard you speak on resources. I know all about resources for the police. I've lived through that too, with the budget, fighting with the RCMP to get more men on the street.

What could we do to crack down on the real source of this, which is the Internet?

I'll start with the RCMP.

My compliments to you. The force was incredibly successful recently on an international scale in this regard.

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

There's presently a federal-provincial-territorial cybercrime working group. I think they'll actually deliver a report in the next month that has a whole herd of legislative tweaks, amendments, and practices within it.

The biggest thing with the Internet is that it's the final frontier. It's the law of the jungle. It was fine ten years ago, when you had power users on the Internet. It was long before children knew how to use a browser. They're very savvy when it comes to making social networks and making icons bounce, but they're still emotionally the same as they've always been.

They're put on this information super highway that has no rules. We have rules all through society to protect our children, but once it comes to the Internet, there are none.

It's not really part of this, but because you asked, there needs to be some regulation of the Internet to put rules in place to protect children when they're on the information highway as much as when they're on the paved one outside our doors here.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Do you have any specific suggestions as to legislation?

We have a three-year-old Internet luring law, and I don't know how it's doing. We've had some evidence on that.

Maybe it's not a justice issue, but it's a telecommunications issue. I don't know.

[Tony Cannavino]

I don't think it's only a telecommunications problem that would be resolved in only that way. I think he explained it very well.

We're waiting for the report. It's going to be very interesting to see what they recommend. But it still leaves us having to protect our kids through criminal legislation.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

It's certainly part of the puzzle.

I have half a minute or 30 seconds left.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Ms. Scanlan, go ahead and comment.

[Det Sgt Kim Scanlan]

In relation to something else ongoing right now, there is privacy legislation.

For instance, in the case of a live abuse situation, it's vital for us to have the IP address of the offender so we can act quickly to get to the location to save that child. We're facing some problems right now with some Internet service providers who feel the legislation tells them they shouldn't share this information with the police. It's very problematic.

We'd like to make sure that door stays open to us so we can act when we need to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you.

Ms. Freeman.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

First, I would like to thank you for your presentations. It was truly very interesting, especially since the issue has been examined from various angles, including information. I see here many professionals, starting with Mr. Hanger, who has already presented all of that, Ms. Kohan, who appears to know the justice committee well, and Mr. Comartin, who knows a lot about the subject.

Personally, I was only recently elected. I am a bit like Mr. Frizzel, who said he has been impressed, for a year, by the scope of this problem. As a new member of Parliament, I don't have all of that baggage and I am not familiar with all of the disputes between the parties or all of the negotiations. I have not reached that level.

I am a mother. I have a 14-year-old son. For a number of years, I have been a member of the Quebec Bar, so I am a lawyer. I never imagined that the problem described this morning was so far-reaching. I hear a lot of talk about the Internet. People didn't talk about the ways in which girls were exploited before the Internet came into being.

As for the Internet, as the mother of a 14-year-old boy, it raises questions in my mind. I had never discussed this with the committee, but this morning, these issues concern me personally, as well as in my capacity as a representative of many constituents and fellow countrymen. How can we protect our children? My 14-year-old son asked me for a new computer for his birthday. Everything I am hearing leads me to wonder whether there are plans to provide any training on this. The question now is how to catch the predators, but we know that we can only catch a very small number of them.

What I said yesterday by way of preamble to the justice minister could be summed up as follows: it's all well and good to criminalize, to raise the age and all of that, but what matters is educating our children. What steps are we taking? You can try to change the whole judicial system, but what is being done to protect them?

Many young people can surf the Internet far more easily than I will ever be able to. The police should inform them and educate them, shouldn't they? Do you have any programs like that? It's all well and good to hunt down predators, but we have to educate young people and explain to them what exploitation is, so that they don't fall into the trap.

[Tony Cannavino]

You raise a very good point: education.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Yes, but that's what being neglected. I find that these days, we're avoiding the problem.

[Tony Cannavino]

In my opinion, the fact that you have raised it is already a start.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

It's the mother in me who is talking; it's neither the parliamentarian nor the lawyer.

[Tony Cannavino]

Parliamentarians have lives too. They don't just sit in the House of Commons.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I certainly hope so. We all have our own baggage.

[Tony Cannavino]

Education in the schools is important, but parents also have to be educated. Young people have an easier time using the computer than their parents. In fact, the parents often ask the kids how to surf the Internet.

There are a number of ways of going about it, as some arrangements show. It's not a cure-all, but one way is to take the computer out of the young person's bedroom and set it up in the living room, for example, or in another room that is accessible to everyone, so that the child is not isolated. It is when the child is isolated that he or she starts visiting sites that should perhaps not be visited. That way, an adult can always watch what the child is doing.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Cannavino, but I see that you are giving me some advice—

[Tony Cannavino]

No, I am repeating what was said.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

That's just fine, but I believe that we do not resort to national public networks, such as television. I heard that the government earmarked millions of dollars in the most recent budget to fight this problem. Will these funds enable us to inform parents and children by placing television ads and notices? I'm talking about a sort of alert system.

I myself am a mother, and I know that most parents believe that the problem will not affect them. One always assumes that it's the neighbour's problem, not ours. But in short, the deficiencies are in training and education.

[Tony Cannavino]

I hope that will be raised by parliamentarians. Once this bill is adopted, you can add new components. You will recall the Just Say No to Drugs campaign and MADD's campaigns about drinking and driving. Parliamentarians should make sure that an educational awareness campaign is launched. We have to make sure that these awareness campaigns are not broadcast exclusively on radio or television, but also disseminated in our schools and through programs similar to the Just Say No to Drugs campaign. These campaigns should also include a component explaining the situation to adults.

Mr. Moore made a suggestion. After having heard all of our witnesses, it would be interesting for you to spend an hour and a half in one of the cybersex squads. You can do so if you make a request. You would be even more up-to-date on the issue, in addition to all of the testimony presented by the stakeholders who appeared before you. When you come out of that room, you will not be able to believe what you have seen.