Justice Committee on March 11th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Monsieur Ménard.

No, your time is up. Thank you.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

You are quick to cut me off, Mr. Chairman. I find you more liberal with others than with me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

I've been very generous with you in the past, Mr. Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Yes, you are a generous man, let us never forget that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

I don't think you have anything to complain about.

Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

I hope you'll be as generous with me as you always are with Mr. Ménard.

Before I ask my questions, I want to go on record and say that of course we're in strong support of this. Our leader, Stéphane Dion, speaking on a major crime bill a year ago in Toronto said:

To protect Canadian seniors, we will act on the recommendations of the Privacy Commissioner to address the problem of identity theft. There were almost 8,000 reports of identify theft in the past year, resulting in more than $16 million being lost, much of it taken from vulnerable seniors. A lifetime of hard work and savings can vanish in an instant. We need tougher laws to prevent this type of crime.

As I said at length in my speech in the House, and just for Canadians watching, make sure you don't give up your address, phone number, bank account, or your social insurance card for anything because people can set up bank accounts in your name and take out mortgages. Businesses should be careful because they could have to spend lots of money on employee information that's been lost.

We really appreciate your doing this, Minister. I have a couple of questions.

One, a Conservative member from Saskatoon--Wanuskewin was caught by this and lost a lot of money. Of course, he greatly supports this. I think he erred when he said the government would not be accepting much in the way of amendments. I'm hoping he wasn't speaking for the minister. I know the minister is not anti-democratic. We have a purpose in having committees. We want to improve the bill if there's a way and maybe make it tougher if things come up from witnesses. I certainly hope the minister is in agreement with our improving the bill if that's what comes forward from our deliberations.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Sometimes we can have different definitions of what it means to improve a bill, Mr. Bagnell. One person's improvement could be another person's gutting of a bill. I remember the conditional sentencing bill.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

That was much improved.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It was improved. I said, thank God there's something left in it. It was just about improved out of existence.

Mr. Bagnell, sometimes there are technical amendments. I've been on this committee myself for about nine years. I know that if you get into substantive amendments, they'll be ruled out of order, in any case, since the bill has been approved in substance at the second reading stage.

Again, I think the bill is very good the way it is. If you've got some amendments you want to have, Mr. Bagnell, we'd certainly be glad to look at them.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I thank you as well for identifying one of the major problems with this, that people from all age groups and all walks of life can become victims, but it's particularly heinous when senior citizens are targeted. One of the things it seems to me we can do as members of Parliament, and certainly when I practised law, is to try to get that message out to seniors that you do not have to part with your personal information. I used to type out a little card--

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Minister, I'll never get all my questions in.

Thank you.

In some bills, I think even under your government, we've made penalties stronger if it were--

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Even under my government--particularly under my government.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Would certain offences have even stronger penalties if they involved organized crime or terrorism?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think, Mr. Bagnell, they're involved with organized crime almost by definition. My analysis of what this bill is covering are groups of individuals who are strung out many times in different countries. Each person has a component of this. Again, I'm satisfied the penalties are reasonable and appropriate in the circumstances, but I wouldn't want to add one more component, that if you can prove this is part of a gang or part of organized crime...because almost by definition this is organized crime. That's what we're talking about here.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

One last quick question.

One of my constituents suggested that to stop mortgage theft, which can be very expensive and is a huge crime, people being approved for mortgages should have their photo taken by law. Do you have any thoughts on that idea?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Give me that again. If you're applying for a mortgage you get your picture taken?

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Yes, because people will go in with a false identity and get a mortgage. This way it would be easier to track down the person who took all your money, put a mortgage on your house, and took hundreds of thousands of dollars from you without your knowing it. It would be easier--

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's a very good point. There are fraud provisions in the Criminal Code right now that deal with this. Much of this is actually being dealt with by provincial law societies and at the provincial level. They generally regulate the mortgage business, the legal profession.

One of the challenges the legal profession is dealing with right now is conspiracies and groups of individuals working together to either mortgage a property or in some way commit a fraud. Sometimes the detection of these is very challenging.

I was told recently, for instance, that if the phony mortgage is being serviced, it takes a long time. The mortgage money gets advanced, but as long as it's being serviced, nobody discovers it for a while, and when it is discovered, it's too late, or the people have long since gone.

So those are some of the challenges.

You're right. It's caught now, and if anything, this would help.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell, Minister.

Mr. Moore.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today on what I think is another very important bill, which I would add is long overdue.

Since being elected in 2004, I've had a number of representations from individuals in my riding, particularly seniors, about the issue of identity theft. I know that's probably something that all of us, as elected officials, have heard representation on.

It's scares people, because it's somewhat hard to understand. People can relate to someone stealing their lawn mower from their shed, but to find out that your identity has been stolen is quite another thing. Often people feel quite violated by that.

You started talking a few minutes ago about some tips you offer. You were just getting going. I was quite eager to hear what some of those were, because I think it is important. So if you would finish what you were saying there...then if there's time, I do have another question.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'd be pleased to do that. I didn't want to take up Mr. Bagnell's time because he had other issues.

A lawyer friend of mine suggested that when people get calls about anything they're uncomfortable with, just say, “No, thank you, I'm not interested.” You never deviate from the script. No matter what the person says to you afterward, you say, “No, thank you, I'm not interested.”

My experience is that about 80% to 90% of people give up after you've said the same thing twice, and almost 100% of them give up after you've said it the third time.

I used to give them a little card and say put this beside your telephone, and if somebody calls you and you're uncomfortable talking about it on the phone, you keep repeating the same lines: “No, thank you, I'm not interested. No, thank you, I'm not interested.” And that's good enough.

That's the suggestion I always make to people, Mr. Moore.

People are entitled to make their own decisions about where they spend their money or what information they give. They should never be put in a position where they're uncomfortable or compromised.

We, in this country, are very, very polite. We don't want to cut people off who are intruding, in many cases, into personal information. I encourage people to say the same thing over again, and that generally works.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Do I still have time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

One quick question.

Minister, you have some commitment, do you?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes, I have a cabinet meeting that started 15 minutes ago, but I want to be here.