Evidence of meeting #20 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vote.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
I'd like to call the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to order--it being Wednesday, March 12, 2008--for our deliberation, as a committee, pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, March 3, 2008, on the statutory review of the proposed appointment of Mr. Brian J. Saunders as the Director of Public Prosecutions.
I would ask that Mr. Saunders come to the head of the table.
Thank you, Mr. Saunders.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB
A point of order, Mr. Chairman. Yesterday when you evacuated the chair you had ruled out of order a motion I made, that this committee should begin hearings into allegations surrounding the attempt to bribe Mr. Cadman. You ruled that out of order.
A colleague of ours challenged that ruling. My understanding is that at that point your obligation is to put to a vote immediately a challenge to your ruling. Instead you chose simply to abandon the chair.
So I'm hoping that without delaying Mr. Saunders' presentation, you will immediately put to a vote the challenge to your ruling of yesterday so that we can proceed.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Given that this is another actual part of committee business and Mr. Saunders is here to testify, I will say this: the motion, whether it's on the table now or not, is a matter of question. It was ruled out of order. I will continue to rule it out of order even if it is presented again. And on the fact that the chair was challenged on that particular ruling, so be it.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
I will not take your vote.
I will address Mr. Saunders and apologize to Mr. Saunders for his appearance here at the committee today. It's unfortunate. We were looking forward to listening to his testimony, but I am not prepared to take that vote and I will vacate the chair. That is an issue right now that I intend--
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
You have no choice, you have to proceed with the vote straight away. I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman. You cannot rewrite the Standing Orders. You have to call the question on the motion straight away.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Just a moment, please, Mr. Chairman, I was making a point of order. You have to let me speak. Yesterday, I challenged your decision.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Yesterday, we ended our meeting on a point of order. I asked that the committee vote on your decision. That means you must automatically call the question. You cannot rewrite the Standing Orders. You are not above the House of Commons and its Standing Orders. We are asking you to call the question immediately. It is not debatable. Check with the clerk if you are uncertain. You asked us to show decorum. If we are to do so, you must assume your responsibilities as the guardian of the Standing Orders. Our Standing Orders stipulate that we must proceed immediately to the vote and I insist that this be done.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
I have already advised this committee that I will be vacating the chair. I will not take the count. My reasons were expressed before.
3:35 p.m.
An hon. member
You can't.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Mr. Chairman, I am going to challenge your ruling in that regard right now. I'm going to challenge the chair on your refusal to take the vote on the challenge to the chair. I am asking that you take a vote on my challenge to your decision that you will not take the vote on the challenge to the chair.
3:35 p.m.
An hon. member
I have a point of order.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
You must first give a ruling on our point of order. Wait a minute, please. We have Standing Orders and you have to adhere to them.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Réal, we all need order. You have to abide by the Standing Orders too.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
You are not the chair. You are not the chair.
You have to decide whether we are going to proceed to a vote.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Réal, you're not the chair, either. Réal, you're not the chair.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Order.
Mr. Dykstra, I am going to excuse Mr. Saunders. I don't think he should be subject to this and, sir--
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB
This is theatrics. It's a joke. You are turning our meeting into a joke.
3:35 p.m.
An hon. member
Deal with it right now.
3:35 p.m.
An hon. member
Who does he think he is?
3:40 p.m.
An hon. member
You can use it.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
The chair's ruling was challenged. So be it. I am not going to take the count. If you want to deal with me as a chair, that's fine, you may do so. But I am not taking the count.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
3:40 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Is this your resignation?
Est-ce que vous démissionnez, monsieur le président?
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
3:40 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Mr. Chairman, nobody is asking for your resignation. We are simply asking that you abide by the Standing Orders. Check with the clerk.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
I will not let this committee turn into a circus. I will not take the count. As far as I'm concerned, the matter is finished, and I will not take the count.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
At this point, colleagues, we do not have a chair. I believe the chair has resigned or left his position.
That being the case, unless members have other views, I would ask the clerk to preside over the election of a new chair.
If a reference is needed, I'll refer you to page 833 of Marleau and Montpetit, which deals with the circumstance of the resignation or absence of the chair.
I nominate Mr. Dykstra as chair of the justice committee.
I would move that Mr. Dykstra be elected chair of the committee, and I would ask the clerk to preside over an election in that regard.
3:40 p.m.
An hon. member
There's a vice-chair in the room. Mr. Ménard is a vice-chair.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON
We don't have a chair. We have a chair who refuses to preside over the proceedings. This is a Conservative chair of the committee.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
3:40 p.m.
Bloc
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
3:40 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
I am not going to take the chair until Mr. Hanger explains why he has resigned, or not, and why he refuses to apply the rules.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB
He's not resigning. He said he won't take the vote. He said he will not take the vote, Réal. That's what he said.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
As a point of order, may I ask the clerk whether there are any options that are clearly available to the committee at this point, in the absence of the chair.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
If we're going to read from the rules, it's pretty clear that in the absence of the chair and the vice-chairs of a committee, an acting chair must be chosen. We have a vice-chair here who can take over when the chair isn't here.
It's right on page 829. There is a vice-chair here. According to the rules, the vice-chair has to take the chair.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
He has been making points of order since we started.
3:45 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Madam clerk, I am not going to take the Chair until somebody explains why Mr. Hangar refused to abide by the Standing Orders. I cannot imagine that there are two different rules on this.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON
Madam Clerk, my understanding is that it is the option of the vice-chair to decline to take the chair. The committee is chaired by the Conservative Party. We have one vice-chair here who has declined to chair the committee, and therefore we need to determine an acting chair.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
I appreciate Mr. Holland's interpretation, but if I read the House of Commons Procedure and Practice, it actually doesn't say what he says.
3:45 p.m.
A voice
Mr. Holland, perhaps we can--
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
It says the vice-chair, in the absence of the chair, has to take it. In the absence of the vice-chair and the chair, an acting chair has to be nominated; until that point, the vice-chair has to take it.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
It says absence, not refusal. It doesn't say anything about refusal. It says absence.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Madam Clerk, I am actually going to give verbal notice now of my intention to move non-confidence in the chair--this is going on the record--and also notice of my intention to nominate Mr. Rick Dykstra as chair for purposes of electing a new chair. I'm giving that verbally now for the record.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
[Inaudible--Editor].... If the vice-chair would take the chair, then perhaps your motion could be considered. In the absence of a chair, there's no....
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
You are keeping us waiting, Mr. Ménard. Go ahead, everybody loves you. We do not normally need to plead with you like this.
3:45 p.m.
An hon. member
You know what, Derek? That's why we have vice-chairs, and we have a vice-chair.
3:49 p.m.
Bloc
3:49 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.
Are you not going to recognize a point of order, Mr. Chair? You have to recognize a point of order.
3:49 p.m.
Conservative
3:49 p.m.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair Bloc Réal Ménard
Given the current situation, I am going to adjourn until 3:30 p.m. tomorrow.
The meeting is adjourned.
