Justice Committee on March 25th, 2009

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have four short questions, three for Mr. Cabana and one for Ms. Sutton, whom I still hold in friendly regard. I am not targeting you personally, but we would like you to contribute a little substance to all of this.

Mr. Cabana, first of all, tell us more about CIROC. I would like to understand where its innovation lies in comparison with what already existed, what this will achieve.

Second, I did not understand your second recommendation very well. During the last session, the committee was told about warrants that were good for three months and that they wanted to extend to one year. We were told this would be useful for surveillance investigations. Is that what you are referring to? Tell us clearly what you want.

Third, if we were to add a new offence to the Criminal Code banning the wearing of symbols that link an individual to organizations deemed criminal by the Court under section 467, do you think that could be useful?

After you have answered, I will ask Ms. Sutton if she can tell us whether or nor is true that the Correctional Service of Canada has a policy on street gangs in penitentiaries. What can she tell us about that at this point in time?

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

Thank you, Mr. Ménard.

I will give you my answer in reverse order: I will begin by answering your last question.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Very well.

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

As regards the wearing of colours or badges that might identify someone as belonging to a criminal organization, it would be desirable, in terms of the impact on people and as a deterrent, that there be an offence in the Criminal Code banning the wearing of them. As far as investigations are concerned, the gathering of evidence within the context of a criminal investigation, it would pose some challenges in identifying which organizations these people belong to. So there are advantages and disadvantages. It is something that could affect investigations. On the other hand, if we are talking about the effect on the general public, I agree with you that it would be an advantage.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Does this not add to the evidence during investigations? For example, does the fact of wearing a Hells Angels' patch not contribute to the evidence?

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

Absolutely. That is what I mean by pros and cons.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Alright.

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

I think that your second question dealt with what we call lawful access. If I understand your question correctly, you would like to know exactly what we want.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I was talking about lawful access, in your second recommendation. What is it you want?

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

In order to try and give you the shortest answer possible, legislation governing or currently managing the collecting of evidence, in the sense of lawful access to communications, goes back to 1974. The provision was added to Part 6 of the Criminal Code in 1974. The technologies targeted by that legislation in 1974 no longer exist today. So this is not a situation whereby the police community is asking for powers in addition to those that existed at that time. We are not asking for police to have the right to access anyone's communications without authorization. What we are asking for is the ability to access communications that are happening through new technology, current technology.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I understand.

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

Currently, with some technologies, we do not even have the ability to intercept communications. The companies developing these technologies are under no obligation to create the ability to intercept them.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

If you have more specific information, I suggest you send it to the clerk. I think that this could be a very concrete recommendation. We would have to identify which technologies we are talking about, but I think that we can follow you on this issue; it appears very reasonable to me.

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

Very good.

What was your first question?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

My first question concerned CIROC. What is new about it?

[C/Supt Mike Cabana]

CIROC is a new agreement within the Canadian police community. It is a committee made up of representatives from various police agencies across Canada, from the municipal, provincial and federal levels. The objective is to ensure that there is operational coordination for police efforts across the country. Traditionally, police forces worked within their own areas of jurisdiction, whether municipal or provincial, and used the information that existed at their level. Intelligence is now managed by CIROC. It is shared and analyzed through a common database and operational decisions are made by the committee. So the result is better coordination.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Ms. Sutton, would you be willing to answer my questions if time permits?

[Jean Sutton]

Certainly.

First of all, I really want to express that there was no disrespect intended to this committee. There was a miscommunication. Even with the short notice, if I had anticipated that you were expecting of me a presentation, you would have received it. Our role is limited, and for that reason, we thought the purpose was to answer direct questions.

Second, as to your question, I am sorry but this is not in our area of responsibility. That question should really be addressed to Correctional Services Canada.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Very well.

[Jean Sutton]

I am sorry.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

That is fine. Let us say no more about it, but I do not hold it against you.

[Jean Sutton]

Thank you.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Do not tell me that I have some time left, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

You have a minute, and that includes the answer.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I would like to come back to the issue of banning the wearing of any symbols that would associate individuals with organizations. This is a proposal that the Bloc put forward in 2007. I did not understand what the disadvantage could be. Some people may challenge it under the Charter, I agree. However, I remind you that our proposal targeted organizations that had been declared criminal under the criteria set out in sections 467.11, 467.12 and 467.13 of the Criminal Code.

What would be the disadvantage of a Criminal Code provision of that kind?