Justice Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2009

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much to both of you. I understand you were able to hear the testimony of the law enforcement officers who were here. There were several issues they raised. One that you, Mr. Purcell, touched on is sustainable funding for a variety of needs in meeting the challenge of law enforcement working against organized crime. But there was also the issue of lawful access. Government has tabled legislation on that. I know it's the public safety minister who has tabled it, but it would be nice to see it come before the justice committee.

I'd like to hear you on the issue of some of the challenges that the new technology places on our law enforcement. We heard from RCMP Superintendent Brennan on ACIIS, which is the national central information computerized bank repository on criminal intelligence; a new business case has been developed to create a new generation, but they need the money for it. There is no single database for portable numbers. The disclosure, the part VI application, is burdensome, etc. So I'd like to hear, on a procedural side, whether you or Nova Scotia's Department of Justice have looked at some of the challenges that exist in the current criminal procedures and the challenges those represent to our law enforcement in successfully, efficiently, and rapidly moving cases forward through the criminal justice system.

Mr. Schneider, I'd like to hear more about the different model you were talking about. The model that our criminal justice system is actually using is what you call “the prohibition/enforcement model”, but there are also models that are, as you said, evidence based. I'd like to hear a little more about those evidence-based models, where they're being put into place or experimented with, and what the results are.

Thank you.

Was I short enough on my questions?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

That was great. We'll see how long the answers are.

Mr. Purcell.

[Robert Purcell]

Yes, no, yes, and....

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Robert Purcell]

On the technological challenges, what I can tell you is that I do participate on the national coordinating committee on organized crime, or NCC, at the federal level, and my colleague Fred Sanford, who is here today, sits on the regional coordinating committee.

Lawful access, in every organized crime form, has been one of the number one priorities brought forward by law enforcement for the last several years. It has been brought forward to NCC; it has been brought forward, at least in previous years, to the federal-provincial-territorial meetings of ministers of justice, who are meeting in just a couple of weeks in Fredericton, and I suspect it will be a topic of some discussion there.

All I can tell you on that is that I've heard the merits by law enforcement. From my understanding, it has been one of their primary concerns, because to go the wiretap route is an essential component for them and they need these legislative changes to help them.

On ACIIS, it has been said by many an inquiry that the police agencies need a single database from which to work. Again, at the national coordinating committee on organized crime, ACIIS has been selected as the go-forward. The business case is being developed, and we are now waiting on cost and timelines from the governance committee.

On disclosure, to what was discussed here this morning at the previous panel I can add only a couple of things. The idea of a judge dealing with disclosure matters prior to a trial came up when I was in the criminal law policy program area, in the context of mega trials, which would often include organized crime matters. It is something that certainly warrants a further look.

I don't want to take all the time from Mr. Schneider, so I'll stop there.

[Stephen Schneider]

As an addendum to that, I agree with everything Robert said.

The idea of technology is to me almost ancillary to the bigger issue, and that is of law enforcement resources--in particular personnel. The most effective organized crime enforcement is not in technology, and it's not even in laws; it's in the police forces. It's in experienced, integrated best practices that work.

Bob worked for years at the RCMP. I've worked for the RCMP for years, and I've worked in the private sector with a number of retired RCMP members. The private sector generally hired the best and the brightest of the RCMP. And I was amazed at the differences once they hit the private sector, when you had this core of really elite investigators and what they were able to do.

Another issue as well is police cooperation. ACIIS has been generally a failure. We've pumped millions of dollars into it, but police forces aren't willing to input the data into that database. It's similar with Stats Canada, which does surveys, and of course the The Uniform Crime Reporting Survey. They've added a new element where the police are supposed to report on when they lay charges under section 467--a criminal organization charge--and that's been a failure because the police aren't entering the data.

Historically, one of the big problems in Canada has been the lack of cooperation between police forces, similar to the United States and similar to many other countries. We've overcome that obstacle quite a bit. There's excellent cooperation now, but we still have a long way to go in the sense of sharing information. Police are very jurisdictional about the information, for good reason. Some of it is empire building and some of it is disclosure issues.

So the issue to me is not technology. It's not even criminal laws. It's being able to give police forces the resources, the training, and the expertise to enable them to adequately target these very sophisticated organized crime groups.

On the second question raised specifically to me.... Conceptually, we could look at four different models when attacking crime and organized crime in particular. The first is what I call a prohibition/enforcement model--

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Actually, Mr. Schneider, I'm going to ask you to follow up on that when someone else asks a question. You're out of time on this one.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Or perhaps send us something in writing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Yes, you can send us follow-up material in writing. It will go to the clerk, it will be translated, and we'll distribute it to members of the committee.

I just want to make sure that everyone gets their time to ask questions.

[Stephen Schneider]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Monsieur Ménard may want to follow up on that and allow you to continue.

Monsieur Ménard, seven minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Schneider, you placed the problem of organized crime within a historical context, and it was very interesting. You are absolutely right: there is no criminal organization more typical than a pirate ship with a captain, officers and seamen who obey more or less voluntarily and who they too are controlled by way of threat and the love of gain.

I wish to thank you for reminding us of the various prohibitions brought about by criminal organizations. I agree with you in saying that organized crime is the manifestation of a social ill that can only be managed through criminal law. You most certainly know that this is our concern here. We wish to arm ourselves with the most appropriate legal tools without hindering... Your presentation was most interesting.

I also found Mr. Purcell's presentation very interesting, but what the committee is seeking to understand are not the various forms of complicity that exist. I believe you are able to distinguish between complicity and organized crime. For example, if several members of the same family agree to exploit their aged parents and deprive them of their fortune, there exists an organization, but this is not what we consider to be organized crime.

Mr. Purcell, you stated that in Nova Scotia there are 99 criminal organizations. My impression is that there is not a major organized crime problem. When we talk about organized crime, we think of something that is being carried out on a large scale. We think of well-structured organizations involving many people gaining large profits and advantages. These organizations are managed with an iron fist and have the means to establish monopolies through a well targeted use of violence, etc.

It is odd to find ourselves here, in Nova Scotia, and to be told that there are in place 99 organized crime groups, when we have just come back from Montreal, where we were told that there were two: the Hells Angels and the mafia. These are the two organizations that are of concern to us. Whatever the sociological reasons are, I fully agree with you that drug trafficking will necessarily breed organizations. If we remove drug trafficking, there will be something else, be it alcohol, tea or illegal cigarettes. But cigarette bans are based on public health objectives.

Could you talk to us about the situation in Nova Scotia? I know that the Hells Angels used to be in the province, but it seems that they are no longer here. No one talked to me about the mafia. You all talk of small groups and street gangs, but no one has mentioned the importance that organizations comparable to the Hells Angels have had. In the end, organized crime is virtually non-existent in Nova Scotia, although crime groups from elsewhere, from Central Canada, Quebec or Ontario sometimes come here. Am I right in saying that?

[Robert Purcell]

Thank you. I don't recall using the number 99 for organized groups here. Perhaps I did. But what I will say is that when you talk about your definition of what organized crime is, I appreciate what you're saying. You're talking about the higher echelon. If that's what you're talking about, as I mentioned, our CISNS report of two and a half years ago made mention that there is organized criminal activity in Nova Scotia, according to their definition of organized crime, which may not reconcile with yours,

To the extent you're talking about, they said it does exist to a certain degree. I would leave that for law enforcement, perhaps. I think CISNS may be appearing here today. I'm not positive about that. I thought they were.

Again, I guess I would seek clarification. If that's the level of organized crime you're talking about, I still think, with our coastlines and our ports, we are susceptible. A concerted, collaborative effort to make sure that our intelligence-gathering efforts are able to be operationalized or to go tactical could still be something we could talk more about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Just for the record, this study actually deals with organized crime interpreted quite broadly. It's certainly up to any witness to define organized crime in terms of their sphere of responsibility. This study is quite broad, and we're welcoming all evidence that might be helpful.

[Robert Purcell]

In that regard, while I appreciate the level you're talking about, from our perspective, we look at organized crime in Nova Scotia in a broad sense, and we believe that even street gangs need to be targeted in organized crime efforts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We're going to go to Mr. Comartin for seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Just to pursue that very briefly, I think our perspective and our concern is that the more established organized crime groups--the stereotypical Mafia, the Cosa Nostra--have the ability, because they are operating at a more sophisticated level, to penetrate to corrupting public officials, the judiciary, and politicians. Any perspective you have on that would be helpful.

I'm not sure where to start. On the cooperation issue, Professor Schneider, you made the point about the lack of data entry in ACIIS. Is that out of a concern about leaks, or is there a lack of resources, or is it territoriality?

[Stephen Schneider]

It's all three. Part of it is a historical lack of cooperation between police. It is an issue of confidentiality. The last thing a police officer wants is to expose an informant or an agent. That's the kind of information that's absolutely critical to ACIIS. Then there is also empire building. Again, it's not as bad as it used to be. The bigger issue is having police input very sensitive and therefore meaningful information into ACIIS. A lot of police forces I have spoken with—municipal, federal, RCMP detachments, intelligence people—won't input any information into ACIIS. They feel it is not useful to them, and if it is not useful to them, why should they put information into it?

A lot of it comes down to the sensitivity of the information. The more sensitive the information, the more meaningful it is for ACIIS. The police are very reluctant to input that very sensitive information, especially if it involves revealing an informant or an agent.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

Professor Schneider, you may want to comment on this as well.

Mr. Purcell, I'm trying to get a handle on why we saw—if I'm right on this—a fairly rapid spike in violent crime at the street level. I know there was a lot of reaction. But then you have the statistics to go with it as well as it being a very high crime area in the country. Did something happen? Was it the growth of the gangs? You said the gangs jumped from 52 to 108 in a very short period of time. Is it that? Were there other things going on in society in this province?

I don't have an understanding of why we saw that jump. I suppose the bottom line, given what we're studying here, is whether it was because of organized crime.

[Stephen Schneider]

The causes of crime and violence are very complex. There is no one causal factor, but what you've seen in recent years, not just in Nova Scotia, British Columbia, or Ontario, is the confluence of a number of factors.

First of all, you have increased competition between small groups. So when Quebec targeted the Hells Angels, they really disrupted a major wholesaler of drugs. It opened an avenue for a number of groups to come in and take their place as wholesalers. So you had increased cooperation. I don't want to say this, but the one good thing that could be said about the Hells Angels was that, notwithstanding the bloody war they had in Quebec, when they emerged from that, they tended to control smaller groups and stop them from fighting.

The second reason is that you've seen a growing underclass of young men who live in poverty, who live in terrible conditions. In Halifax, we're talking about places like East Preston, Mulgrave Park, parts of Spryfield. I work in these communities with at-risk kids, and the conditions there are absolutely terrible.

For years, Canada looked to the United States and said, “Oh, we don't have the type of inner-city ghettos and concentration of poverty that the United States has.” Well, guess what? We do have that now, and to ignore that would be naive.

I would argue that one of the most significant factors that's driving the increase in violence—and in fact we are seeing an increase in violence, an increase in gangs—is this growing subclass or underclass of young men, racialized young men. In Nova Scotia it's primarily African Nova Scotians, and that is again because African Nova Scotians disproportionately live in poverty, in terrible communities. You go to public government subsidized housing—and I'll take you down to Mulgrave Park just a couple of blocks from here. You'll find it's 80% African Nova Scotian. That's the product of the long institutionalized racism that's been present in this province.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I just want to jump quickly. You're the first person to raise this, but I think I'm accurate on this as well. Canada has become identified as a base for telemarketing fraud operations. Can you tell us if I'm accurate in that and why it has happened? Why are we doing it, as opposed to their basing themselves in the U.S., or Australia, or Europe?

[Stephen Schneider]

We have a disproportionate amount of telemarketing fraud, and again it mirrors economic realities. We have the technology where someone in Toronto can phone senior citizens in Florida or California. We have our laws on commercial crime, and Robert can probably address this better than I. Our laws and punishment of commercial crime are considerably lax compared to those in the United States. So what would get you maybe a couple of years in prison in Canada would get you 10 or 15 years in the United States.

Again, you have a concentration of crime groups in Toronto and Montreal, which are the epicentres of telemarketing fraud, and again it's historically based as well. We had telemarketing fraud in the 1950s. We had what were called securities “boiler rooms”. Canada was known as the “moose pasture” securities industry. We had all these boiler room operations, some connected to the Italian Mafia, that were targeting seniors in the United States in the 1950s.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

The groups that are operating now, are they connected to any of the existing crime groups?

[Stephen Schneider]

Some are and some aren't. You have a lot of opportunistic criminals who see this as a way to make easy money and where the punishment is quite lenient. There's also evidence to show that the Rizzuto family in Montreal has ties to telemarketing fraud and that the Hells Angels has had ties to telemarketing fraud. Then you have Nigerian crime groups doing telemarketing fraud as well. So yes, there are the well-established groups that are backing these. At the same time, you have a lot of opportunistic criminals who are getting into this just simply because it's easy money.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll go to Mr. Woodworth.