Justice Committee on Nov. 27th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

It's legal advice from people?

[William F. Pentney]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Not just cash?

[William F. Pentney]

No, that's right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I do want to comment, because I have an opportunity, that I find it strange that the Canadian Museum of History is also supplying cash or artifacts, or something to this discussion. I'm not sure what they'd be providing. We've got Fisheries and Oceans, Finance, Natural Resources, Parks Canada and the Canadian Museum of History, which boggles my mind.

[William F. Pentney]

You would understand, Mr. Chair, that in some of these negotiations articles and artifacts, and items of an historical and ceremonial and religious nature—that may be held by a Canadian museum, having been gathered up 100 years ago—can be part of the process of finding reconciliation on a path forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I appreciate that answer.

The next question I have for you is on the reallocation of resources from contributions to grants, which I think Mr. Casey was referring to on the list of transfer payments. In the supplementary estimates (B), on the list of transfer payments, it's got $1.2 million under vote 5b, transferring from a contribution, I believe, to a grant to the justice partnership and innovation piece. When I flip the page I see the supplementary estimates say $1.7 million. Where is the other $500,000? Where is that coming from?

[William F. Pentney]

I'll ask. Five hundred thousand?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

You need to look at supplementary estimates (B). You need to look at the page “Supplementary Estimates (B)”, not the main estimates.

[William F. Pentney]

We will find it, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I think the answer to Mr. Casey's question is that because it's transferring from a contribution to a grant, that's why the zeros are there. It's not that we weren't funding stuff in the past, but it's coming out of a different type of delivery method that those zeros are there.

Does anybody have an answer for me, why under supplementary estimates (B) it's $1.7 million? Unless there were some in supplementary estimates (A), but we didn't have supplementary estimates (A), so it couldn't be from supplementary estimates (A).

You can send me the answer.

[William F. Pentney]

Could we take that under advisement, Mr. Chair? We certainly are aware of the transfers back and forth here of resources from grants to contributions and contributions to grants. We will look at the $500,000 discrepancy and we will provide you with an answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I'll be honest with you. I had the same question as Mr. Casey and I think the minister mentioned the internal transfer. I would make a recommendation to you to make to TB that if there is a transfer between a grant and a contribution, that there's a note somewhere saying that internal grant would show up as a zero somewhere else.

[William F. Pentney]

We will convey that on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I had written down, “Is this a new program?” because there was no estimate to date, but that's not the case.

[William F. Pentney]

No. In respect of those, we can confirm that neither of them are new programs. They are transfers within the vote in that sense.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

That's all my time. Thank you very much.

New Democrats? Madam Péclet.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Those were very good questions, Mr. Chair. I know that you look closely at our finances and we thank you for that.

I would just like to confirm some of the information that the minister gave us.

Mr. Pentney, can you confirm what the total contributions for legal aid will be from 2014 to 2017?

[William F. Pentney]

Yes.

For criminal legal aid, we have $108.3 million; for court-ordered counsel, $1.65 million; for legal aid related to public security and anti-terrorism measures, $2.0 million; for program operations—the people who help us administer this and their operating costs—$1.63 million. In these supplementary estimates (B), we have $11.5 million for immigration and refugee, $0.5 million for cessation and vacation in the citizenship and immigration context, and $0.88 million with respect to public security and anti-terrorism, for a total of $126.46 million.

The minister mentioned as well that in terms of what an ordinary person would understand as legal aid, we should also add an amount which is transferred in an access.... I should let Elizabeth explain. It's an access to justice transfer for the three territories, so we've rolled together a series of transfers for them. That amount is $4.1 million, and that's ongoing resources, so it's not being voted in the supplementary estimates (B). It's just a different way of delivering a variety of programs to the territories to make it easier for them to administer it. We call it an access to justice transfer, but a chunk of it goes to criminal legal aid.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Speaking of legal aid, aspects of it affect refugees, immigration, terrorism and all the other things you mentioned. You mentioned the family support initiative. Legal aid does not exist there. Is it not included in the $108 million?

[William F. Pentney]

No, it is not included. Family assistance is more to do with programs that help families; it is not about paying for lawyers.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

So legal aid does not exist at that level.

[William F. Pentney]

The amount I have just told you about is connected with legal aid in criminal matters. Legal aid for civil matters is included in the Canada Social Transfer. So the provinces are responsible for allocating funds for that.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

So there has been no decrease in the contributions for legal aid since 2011?

[William F. Pentney]

Since 2011, no.