Justice Committee on Dec. 9th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Madame Péclet.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Point noted, but this amendment was actually, literally proposed by the mixed committee on regulations. I'm just answering the questions that were raised by the committee members in their letter sent to the minister; that's all.

(Amendment negatived: nays 5; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

We are on amendment NDP-3.

Madame Péclet.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

We've talked a lot about the definition of accessibility. This amendment simply has to do with establishing certain guidelines around the accessibility of documents. The way things are now, no such guidelines exist.

The idea here is to set some guidelines for departments using incorporation by reference. The amendment reads as follows:

“accessible, in particular by retaining a copy of it and making it available to the public.”

That would broaden the definition of accessibility, and likely make things clearer for those who pointed out that the definition of what constitutes an accessible document was lacking.

To my mind, if we are going to pass legislation that imposes a requirement—in other words, accessibility—we should at least provide some guidelines defining that requirement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Mr. Dechert.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Mr. Chair, the government does not support this amendment. A power to issue guidelines should not be included in the bill. The government inherently has the power to issue administrative guidelines on any matter and does not need express power in legislation.

Moreover, the effect of this proposal would likely be to create a regulation-making power to issue guidance by order. This is entirely different from the creation of administrative guidance. The government encourages regulation-making authorities to be transparent in their regulatory proposals.

As to why choices to incorporate by reference certain documents are being proposed, Health Canada and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency are examples of departments that have created public documents on this topic, and it is not necessary, in our view, for a power to be granted to issue administrative non-binding guidelines.

For those reasons, we will not be supporting this amendment.

(Amendment negatived: nays, 5; yeas, 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

On amendment NDP-4, the last amendment, we have Madame Péclet.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I'm sure they'll change their minds.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I studied various pieces of legislation in place around the country, as well as the world, and I read the joint committee's recommendations. According to the committee, where standards emanating from independent third parties are incorporated by reference, there is no reason why the regulation-making authority should not be responsible for making the necessary arrangements to obtain permission to make that standard available to the public free of charge.

The committee is referring to the government's responsibility around ensuring accessibility. As far as regulations incorporated by reference are concerned, whether in the case of provincial, federal or international legislation, it should be free for people to consult them. And I'm not talking about getting a copy, but actually consulting them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Mr. Dechert.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Mr. Chair, the government does not support this amendment. The government encourages regulation-makers to ensure that material is accessible in many ways. In some cases, a reasonable fee for the purpose of accessing incorporated material is acceptable. This in no way precludes copies from being made available for consultation or for viewing through other innovative and flexible mechanisms that result from partnerships with standards development organizations such as the Canadian Standards Association.

Other jurisdictions still respect copyright in incorporated standards and do not require the standard to be free in order to incorporate it, for example, the United States, New Zealand, and various provinces of Canada. Regulation-making authorities will not charge a fee for consultation of incorporated documents that they have on hand.

(Amendment negatived: nays, 5; yeas, 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

We will now move to the vote on clause 2.

Do you want to do it on division or do you want a recorded vote?

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I want a recorded vote on everything. I'd be afraid that I'd change my mind and somebody would jump in and [Inaudible—Editor].

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Okay. Thank you very much. That's good enough.

(Clause 2 agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

(Clause 3 agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

(Clause 4 agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Shall the short title carry?

(Short title agreed to: yeas 6; nays 3)

Shall the title carry?

(Title agreed to: yeas 6; nays 3)

Shall the bill carry?

(Bill agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

Shall the chair report the bill back to the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[An hon. member]

On division.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Ladies and gentlemen, that takes care of Bill S-2.

I want to thank everyone for their participation today. Merry Christmas to everyone, and a big hand for the staff who look after us here. Thank you very much. In fact, I had an idea that was brought to me for the staff who help us here. I got them a turkey cookie, as was recommended, so here you go.

That's it. The meeting is adjourned.