Evidence of meeting #6 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was supreme.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Laurie Wright  Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Law Sector, Department of Justice
Benoît Pelletier  Full Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Pierre Thibault  Assistant Dean and Counsel, Civil Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Hugo Cyr  Professor of Public Law, Faculty of Political Science and Law, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number six of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying the subject matter under clauses 471 and 472 of BillC-4 a second act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 21, 2013, and other measures.

Our first witness today is our minister, the Hon. Peter MacKay, and with him from the Department of Justice is Laurie Wright, the Assistant Deputy Minister for Public Law.

We have the minister for about an hour.

Is there any opening comment you would like to make, Minister?

8:50 a.m.

Central Nova Nova Scotia

Conservative

Peter MacKay ConservativeMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Yes. Thank you very much, colleagues, and Mr. Chair.

I'm pleased to be here with Laurie Wright to speak to you about the declaratory provisions to the Supreme Court Act proposed in division 19, part 3 of Bill C-4, and the Economic Action Plan 2013, No. 2.

Colleagues, these declaratory provisions have been introduced to clarify the most basic criteria for appointment to the Supreme Court and are the same regardless of the appointee's province or region, and to ensure that any future government can continue to draw from the ranks of the most talented and experienced jurists who currently sit on Canada's federal courts in filling vacancies on the highest court in the land, the Supreme Court of Canada.

Mr. Chair, esteemed colleagues, I am hopeful that public consideration of these provisions in Parliament will also help the public to better understand the work of the federal courts and remove any doubt as to the eligibility and suitability of its judges for appointment to the Supreme Court of Canada, including as members of the court for Quebec.

Colleagues, in the government's view, the eligibility of the federal court judges to fill any vacancy on the Supreme Court should not be in doubt. It is solidly supported by legal opinion prepared by respected former Supreme Court Justice Ian Binnie, which itself was supported by his former colleague, the Honourable Louise Charron, as well as by noted constitutional expert, Professor Peter Hogg.

However, as you are no doubt aware, Mr. Chair, colleagues, despite the weight of legal expert opinion, some have continued to question the eligibility of federal court judges for appointment to the Supreme Court, particularly as members of the Court for Quebec. In order to resolve this critical matter as soon as possible, the government is proceeding on two fronts.

As you know, the matter is referred to the Supreme Court of Canada to confirm, first, the meaning of the statute, and second, Parliament's authority to enact legislation that requires that a person be, or has previously been, a barrister or advocate of at least 10 years’ standing at the bar of a province as a condition of appointment as a judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, or to enact the declaratory provisions under consideration here today before you.

On the other front, the Economic Action Plan 2013, No. 2 was determined to be the most expeditious and most efficient way of introducing declaratory provisions and ensuring that they are enacted on time to guarantee that federal court judges can be considered in the process of filling upcoming Supreme Court vacancies, the first of which arises next April.

These declaratory provisions clarify—without making substantive changes to the existing law—that individuals with at least 10 years at any bar in Canada, including the Quebec bar, at any time during their career, are eligible to sit on the Supreme Court of Canada.

It's very straightforward language.

Mr. Chair, I would like to stop here for a moment and make the point that it may appear a bit technical, but it is of central importance to this committee's consideration of clauses 471 and 472 of Bill C-4. The provisions that these clauses introduce differ in quality and, consequently, in effect from the types of statutory amendments generally considered and debated by Parliament or by a committee such as this. These provisions are declaratory in nature and, as such, they do not amend the Supreme Court Act in the way that a standard statutory amendment would.

Typically, statutory amendments enact new provisions or change existing provisions in a way that makes the result different in substance from the provisions they would replace, modify, or amend. The nature of the proposed declaratory provisions is to explain the proper interpretation of the law from the time it came into force and effect.

Essentially, it is language that adds to the meaning in a way that will bring about greater understanding.

The Supreme Court of Canada recently explained the impact of declaratory provisions in its 2013 decision in Régie des rentes du Québec v. Canada Bread Company Ltd. The court stated in that case:

The interpretation imposed by a declaratory provision stretches back in time to the date when the legislation it purports to interpret first came into force, with the effect that the legislation in question is deemed to have always included this provision.

In keeping with the purpose of a declaratory provision, clauses 471 and 472 confirm the basic requirement that judges must meet to be appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada. These provisions will make it clear that the current wording of these sections does, in fact, allow for judges of the Federal Court to fill Quebec vacancies on the Supreme Court of Canada, as long as at some point in their legal career they had been members of the Quebec bar for a minimum of 10 years. This ensures that current and former members of the Quebec bar are treated in the same way as current and former members of any other province. So it is to keep consistency and parity with all provincial bar associations.

I should explain, Mr. Chair, that the wording of these provisions has changed very slightly over the course of the past century as a function of legislative revision and consolidated exercises performed for all federal statues. However, there have been no substantive changes. We're talking about changes here after a considerable period of time for the purposes of clarification.

Successive pieces of legislation empowering Parliament have established that any changes that occur during these revision exercises are not intended to be substantive. The rule reflects an important principle. Given Parliament's role in enacting the laws of Canada, it should be inappropriate for mere housekeeping matters to change the law.

This principle is reflected as well in long-established rules of statutory interpretation that routine statutory revision and consolidation do not result in substantive legislative amendments.

That's what we're talking about here today. It is not a substantive change but a declaratory statement to clarify existing law.

Mr. Chair, I want to point out as well that the appointment of federal court judges to the Supreme Court of Canada is in no way novel. Mr. Justice Marshall Rothstein, a current and esteemed member of the court, was a member of the Manitoba Bar, appointed to the Federal Court, then to the Federal Court of Appeal and, ultimately, to the Supreme Court of Canada in 2006. Before him, Justices Frank Iacobucci and Gerald Le Dain, both members of the Ontario Bar, followed the same route to the Supreme Court.

It should be neither surprising nor unexpected that Supreme Court vacancies have in the past been filled from the ranks of Federal Court judges. This is not without precedent.

Experience in the Federal Court enhances rather than negates a long-time advocate's qualification to serve on the Supreme Court of Canada. I say that because the Supreme Court regularly hears appeals from decisions of the federal courts. In 2012 alone, the Supreme Court heard 10 appeals from decisions of the Federal Court of Appeal, as compared to 15 from the much larger Court of Appeal of Québec.

As I mentioned at the outset, Mr. Chair, it has been suggested in particular that judges of the Federal Court ought not to be appointed given the requirement under section 6 of the Supreme Court Act that three of the nine judges of the Supreme Court be appointed from Quebec.

The argument is that since Quebec is a civil law jurisdiction where the Quebec civil code applies, only those who practise law in Quebec at the time the appointment must be filled or who sit on a Quebec superior court are qualified. However, Mr. Chair, this argument is demonstrably without merit, not least because it reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the work of the federal courts.

Let me explain. Judges of the Federal Court have jurisdiction over a wide and diverse area of law, and the principle of bijuralism means that they must regularly apply federal law in accordance with legal rules and principles in force in the province from which it arises.

For matters arising from Quebec this means that judges of courts, like the Federal Court of Appeal, must routinely interpret Quebec's civil code in deciding matters arising in complex and diverse areas such as tax law, copyright, and bankruptcy. That is why, like the Supreme Court Act, the Federal Court Act requires that there be a minimum number of judges on the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal who have also been members of the bar from Quebec at any time. There are ten on the Federal Court and five on the Federal Court of Appeal. In essence, it's the same type of composition. There is mandatory membership on the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal from Quebec.

The object of this statutory requirement is precisely the same as that of section 6 of the Supreme Court Act. It is to ensure that those courts have the requisite bijural capacity to deal with matters that arise from both civilian and the common law systems that define our system of administration of justice. To exclude the eminent Quebec jurists appointed to the Federal Court in satisfaction of such a requirement for consideration for appointment to the Supreme Court of Canada, and satisfaction of an essentially similar requirement, evidently makes no sense. Indeed, it could only serve, in my estimation, to weaken the guarantee provided by section 6 of the Supreme Court Act.

Moreover, as the Hon. Robert Décary, former justice of the Federal Court of Appeal, has recently and eloquently observed (in La Presse on October 25, 2013), to suggest that a judge of the federal courts trained in civil law does not have the level of expertise in civil law that section 6 is intended to protect is to ignore the practical reality of Canada's, and the world's, legal landscape. In his words, Quebec's civil law:

…has made its mark in the world. It borrows from common law and it lends to common law.

Which lawyer or judge in Quebec can claim today to live exclusively in the world of classic civil law? Divorce law is federal. Our administrative, criminal and penal law is Anglo-Saxon in inspiration. Commercial law is increasingly international. Human rights are global rights.

In addition, Mr. Chair, and to conclude, taking a restrictive interpretation of section 6 of the Supreme Court Act would exclude not only judges from the Federal Court but also many other candidates from appointment to the Supreme Court of Canada. For example, judges of La Cour du Québec would be excluded as they are neither judges of the Superior Court or the Court of Appeal, nor are they currently advocates. This restrictive interpretation would lead to an absurd result that has been noted by other constitutional experts. Later this morning, I understand, you'll hear from Professor Benoît Pelletier. In an interview on Radio-Canada on October 23, he stated:

The interpretation that prevails, I believe, or should prevail, when one looks at the spirit of the provision is that you just need to have been a member of the bar for 10 years, but you do not have to still be one today.

Mr. Chair, by taking this legislative step and also by referring this question to the Supreme Court of Canada, our government is defending the eligibility of members of the bar in all provinces and territories to sit on the highest court of the land. Members of the Quebec bar should be, and are under law, treated the same as lawyers in other provinces and territories in Canada.

Our government looks forward to a prompt, conclusive resolution of these questions ensuring the continued eligibility for appointment to the Supreme Court of eminent jurists of Canada's federal courts. This could only help ensure that the Supreme Court will maintain the long tradition of independence and excellence that has made it the envy of both the developed and developing democracies.

Mr. Chair, I thank you for your indulgence.

I'd be pleased, of course, to answer your questions.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much, Minister.

Our first questioner from the New Democratic Party is Madam Boivin.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Thank you for being here this morning, Mr. Minister. I am not as grateful to you for the situation we find ourselves in concerning an institution as important as the Supreme Court of Canada.

When Professor Dodek testified here this week, he raised quite an interesting point. He wondered how you could do these two things at the same time. I am sure you will tell me it is a matter of your authority to do so.

Bill C-4 has been tabled in the House of Commons. In your capacity as Attorney General of Canada and Minister of Justice, all government bills receive your seal of approval indicating that they are in compliance with the legislation, the regulations and the Constitution. I doubt that you let Bill C-4 through without having consulted all the people in your department and done all the usual checks.

At the same time, you are submitting a reference to the Supreme Court in which you ask about the government's jurisdiction.

That's the question you're asking the Supreme Court of Canada:

Can Parliament enact legislation that requires that a person be or has previously been a barrister or advocate of at least 10 years standing at the bar of a province as a condition of appointment as a judge of the Supreme Court of Canada or enact the annexed declaratory provisions as set out in clauses 471 and 472 of the Bill entitled Economic Action Plan 2013 Act, No. 2?

Back to Professor Dodek, how can you claim with Bill C-4 when it's filed in the House that it is in order, but at the same time ask the Supreme Court whether you are in order? I have a bit of a problem seeing some logic between the two.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Mr. Chair, colleagues, I would suggest to you that we're doing this with a clear intent to provide any future process with the ability to say there is absolute clarity here, that the province of Quebec and the Barreau du Québec are treated the same as any other province or provincial bar in the country. The intent is to have a clarification by the Supreme Court of Canada, which is the ultimate interpreter of this legislation. To make a declaratory provision in the Supreme Court Act will, in my view, close out any present or future misinterpretation. We have a challenge, which is what has been the impetus for these steps.

I would suggest to you, colleague, that we can do two things simultaneously without going outside the law. We can do this in a way that will provide clarity for future appointments. We know that there are future appointments coming. This is the nature of the Supreme Court. There will always be a turnover of judges.

So it is very much a matter of efficiency, expediency, and bringing about the greatest degree of clarity in the short term.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Mr. Minister, this is no mundane matter we are talking about. This is the Supreme Court of Canada. Would it not have been more prudent to proceed differently?

Last August, after the first stage of the work of the committee reviewing the government's list, you said yourself that there could be a problem of interpretation. I really want to believe that there are solid legal opinions. You are a lawyer, I am a lawyer and we both know full well that, for three legal opinions that say one thing, another three may say something else. It is not easy to decide how to interpret this. In your interpretation, any lawyer who has been a member of the Quebec Bar for at least 10 years would be eligible. So I wonder why the legislation has the added mention of the Federal Court of Appeal and the Superior Court. The texts become quite useless.

That said, you yourself said that there was a potential problem of interpretation and the sections might perhaps have to be amended. I even accept that you have the right to do so, and, together with all the other experts, we will see whether it will be a constitutional change. If the government had the right to bring in an amendment, why did it not go that route instead of creating this absolutely awful mess that has engulfed everyone, especially the Supreme Court and the hon. Justice Nadon?

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Well, I completely disagree with that characterization. As you know, this issue arose when an individual from Toronto, a private practitioner, decided to challenge this appointment. That's the origin of this. This wasn't something—

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

But your comment was before his lawsuit, by the way, because your comment, Minister, if I remember correctly, was in August of this year. The lawsuit from the lawyer in Toronto was after the nomination of Judge Nadon, so you can't say that it was after. You made the assumption that maybe we should amend. I think I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly that it would have been the proper way to do it.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

That is in fact the prudent way to proceed, and to take preemptive action by going out and getting a legal opinion, which we did, from Mr. Justice Ian Binnie, who I know you are familiar with, a very eminent jurist, and who, by the way, has had his opinion verified further by Madam Justice Louise Charron and a constitutional expert. So—

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

But nobody from Quebec. You have nobody from Quebec, and the Government of Quebec doesn't agree with you. I'd be a bit scared, then.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

I'm not scared in the least. Saying that the Government of Quebec might disagree with something the federal government is doing is saying that the sun will come up tomorrow. There's every possibility that they will agree.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Not necessarily.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

You're from the province of Quebec. We've seen this throughout our history, particularly when it's from a sovereigntist government—

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

No, no. It was from the Liberal government before them, too, the same attitude, but anyway....

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Well, in any event, this is the process that we have followed. We sought a legal opinion. We have sought a further opinion, of course, from the Supreme Court itself, and we have introduced a declaratory provision to bring crystal clarity to the legislation. It is not an unusual thing to do to bring in a declaratory provision.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

And in a budget act, Minister, a budget act, that's weird.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you, Minister.

Our next questioner is Monsieur Goguen, from the Conservative Party.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mrs. Wright, for testifying today.

Obviously, the appointment of a Supreme Court Justice does not happen every day, and we all recognize that it's important to have a rigorous, inclusive, and transparent process that leaves no doubt as to what the mechanisms are. Of course, your statements today and the testimony given will explain why the declaratory provisions that we've enacted in clauses 471 and 472 are so important.

I noticed in your opening remarks that you spoke of Mr. Justice Décary, and we know, of course, that Mr. Justice Décary spent 20 years at the Federal Court of Appeal, and that he wrote an important decision in St-Hilaire v. Canada, which of course confirms the place of the civil law in the federal courts. Former Justice Décary supports publicly that on our declaratory provisions, clauses 471 and 472 that are in front of us today, he is in full agreement with them.

Can you tell us about the place of civil law at the Federal Court and why these declaratory provisions are so important for the preservation of the civil law tradition at the Federal Court and also the Supreme Court, Mr. Minister?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Thank you for the question, Mr. Goguen. You are right: Justice Décary's decisions are clear. He said that the civil code is part of the legal system in Quebec.

He's very definitive in that particular decision. Our government recognizes that there is a crucial role of the civil law at every level of the court system, particularly at the Supreme Court itself, so these interpretative amendments that we're presenting are intended, as I've stated a few times, to clarify the existing law. They will ensure, in my view, the right of Quebec judges at the Federal Court level to sit on the Supreme Court and bring their expansive experience, which also involves dealing with the civil law, and which also involves, of course, being inclusive of the province of Quebec.

It's necessary, in my view, that we ensure there is a positive evolution and influence of bijuridisme at every court level. In fact, Mr. Justice Décary illustrates this: that growing the place of bijuridisme is already happening in our courts.

He affirms that. He wrote a letter, as you're probably aware and as you've alluded to, in La Presse, about these two declaratory provisions. He wrote, “I was a civil law practitioner when I was appointed and I have continued to be one.” So whether you're appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada or whether you're a federal jurist or an appeal court jurist, it doesn't somehow cease your attachment to the civil law, because the civil law is still under contemplation by both of those courts.

That principle that Justice Décary established in this case of

St-Hilaire v. Canada (Attorney General)

was very much recognized by Parliament in the Federal Law--Civil Law Harmonization Act No. 1, so I would suggest to you that your assertion is correct.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

It is clear from your statements that bijuralism is a pillar of Supreme Court law and, of course, we are going to continue to go along with that very basic and fundamental principle.

Madame Boivin questioned sections 5 and 6. She said there was perhaps a dissonance between the French and English versions. Of course, very prudently we obtained Mr. Justice Binnie's opinion in this regard.

With regard to our provisions in clauses 471 and 472, have you spoken to legal experts to determine whether these interpretative amendments will preserve Quebec's civil law tradition, it being so important to us?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Yes, we have. We've sought outside expertise and opinion on this. We believe, as you've alluded to, that this will bring that necessary clarity to the law.

When you boil it right down, what we're doing is simply adding the expression “at any time”. What we try to do, and what we, I think, have accomplished, as all governments have sought to accomplish, is ensure that there is parity and clear interpretation in both the French and English texts of our law, of our statutes, of our administration.

We pursued this two-track approach of ensuring clarity in the legislation through this declaratory provision and at the same time sought a legal opinion and referred it to the Supreme Court itself. I believe all the bases are covered. I believe this was a prudent thing to do, and I believe this will serve to ensure greater consistency and confidence in Supreme Court appointments in the future, particularly vis-à-vis the province of Quebec.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you for those questions.

Our next questioner from the Liberal Party is Mr. Casey.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, do you agree with the Minister of Finance when he says the purpose of a budget implementation act is to implement the provisions of the budget?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

If that is what he has said, then that is what he meant.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Can you tell me where in the budget we can find reference to the provisions of the amendment to the Supreme Court Act?