Justice Committee on March 22nd, 2022

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Are these recommendations that you brought to us from the executive of that branch of the Canadian Bar Association?

[Jeneane S. Grundberg]

Yes, that's correct.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Has there been a broader discussion in the Canadian Bar Association about those recommendations? I ask because they contradict a lot of the evidence that we've heard here about the safety of those involved in the sex trade.

[Jeneane S. Grundberg]

No, we were not able to do further consultation. In fact, our third point is that we encourage the committee to do broader consultation in that regard.

We did not have an opportunity, because of the time frames involved, to consult with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities or the provincial and municipal associations, for example.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

Mr. Morrison, you have five minutes.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Superintendent Byrne, this has already been touched on by a couple of questions. In your opinion, as part of BCACP and CACP, how could you move forward with standardizing the success you've had with enforcing PCEPA in Vancouver, in British Columbia, and having the same type of success across Canada?

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

I think doing that would require the various police agencies across the country—in preparation for today, I actually spoke to a variety of police agencies—to reach a consensus. We really have to look at the two different types of environments we find in Canada, the rural versus the urban environment. They can be very different. However, we have had success here with our enforcement guidelines. We engaged the sex worker community group to give us input and assistance on developing them. We do seek constant feedback on them and adjust as necessary.

I think it's something that would require the collaboration of all the police agencies, and then also with the Crown and other stakeholders involved in the criminal justice system.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

On top of that, another success...I can tell by your compassion that you're giving to us, and your experience. It's come across our desks during this investigation we're working on that there are some inconsistencies in how the different police departments are actually handling sex workers. It would seem to me that, on top of perhaps standardizing the enforcement side, also having some standard training so that other law enforcement agencies that are struggling with having people come forward because they are afraid of police....

You know, I have a fairly extensive background in policing. Sometimes it just takes a long time, but it also takes the right people to develop training. I wonder if you can help us with some suggestions on where we could go nationally to ensure that we have police officers and enforcement trained to that degree, to be sensitive and to be using common sense.

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

I would suggest national training. Of course, we do have access to the CPKN, which is a national platform where police can receive training mostly online.

One thing I do want to point out, though, is that, yes, the law is enforced differently throughout the country, but the demographics of the crime groups are also very different across the country. That is a challenge for us. In the east, gangs such as the North Preston's Finest are very entrenched in organized crime and the exploitation of women and children involved in the sex trade. We're only beginning to see that here in British Columbia.

I just want to make the members aware that this is an issue as well. Not only is the enforcement different from region to region, but the crime groups that are actually committing the offences are extremely different as well.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Maybe you could touch on that, on the organized crime and gang activity. What have you seen in recent times, maybe in the last two or three years, with regard to especially children being exploited and involved in the sex trade by organized crime and gang activity? Have you seen a change in that at all?

[Supt Lisa Byrne]

Yes. We have seen a significant change here in Vancouver. I think it's something that is much more common in the east, in Nova Scotia and Ontario particularly, but here we have seen the recruitment of young women in malls and in high schools by young men 12 to 15 years old who are acting as pimps. It is obviously very concerning on all fronts. The offenders are young and the victims are young. It starts at a very early age.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Ms. Diab, you have five minutes.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to direct my question to Mr. Westell from the criminal justice section. I'm really interested in, and I would like to get a little more in depth on, what my colleague Mr. Fortin was asking you and your responses to that. I appreciated it when you started with the Canadian Bar Association having a unique and balanced perspective. Having been a member of the CBA more than a decade ago, but for many years, I can speak to my involvement when I was there at the time.

In relation to what we are dealing with, I would appreciate it if you could elaborate a bit more on that from the perspective of your section. Can you also comment on whether you or your section has looked at all at the New Zealand model?

For the purposes of the committee, we're trying to figure out what to do with this: whether to strike this bill, leave it as is or make amendments and, if so, what they should be and how they can help the issues here.

I'm going to agree with a number of things that you said. There are other provisions in the law that deal with human trafficking, etc. What are we trying to do here and what is your recommendation to us?

[Kevin B. Westell]

Right off the bat, I'll enter my plea that I don't have a working knowledge, other than a very broad one, about what they're doing in New Zealand, its efficacy and its implementation, so I'll have to pass on that aspect of the question.

In facing the rest of the question, I'll say that we are an organization of lawyers and our section is made up of Crown defence, those who, as I said, work and specifically do files on behalf of vulnerable people, including victims of sexual offences. All those perspectives are at the table when we formulate our position on things like this.

There's the doctrinal aspect of this, which is the principle. What are the principles that should govern our position? There's also the question of what's practical. Practically speaking, when bills or provisions are designed too broadly, they lead to constitutional challenges that have merit, whether they're successful or not. That takes time and money in our courts and it costs the taxpayers money.

We want not only fair and just laws, but precision in law-making. Precision keeps us away from constitutional challenges because the net of liability is cast too broadly on certain offences or certain criminalized portions of an act. That's a lot of what we're concerned with here with section 286.1. It nets in people who are not.... Whether in theory or in practice, its easy to see that those who are not what we would classically define as the exploited sex worker or the underage sex worker are made to suffer and are put at risk by elements that make it hard for them to have transparency around the work they're doing. If they have to hide any of it, we say that pushes it underground.

With respect to section 286.1, we say, strike it. With respect to sections 286.2 and 286.4, we need to make them more specific. That's what we're asking for.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Would you say that Canada's prostitution laws are being used as an indirect way to prosecute human traffickers? If so, should they be?

[Kevin B. Westell]

The human trafficking provision should be used to prosecute human traffickers. If a human trafficker or somebody engaged in the work of human trafficking contravenes these other laws, they should be held accountable to these laws as well. There's no problem with that.

Specificity and precision are going to assist lawmakers, courts and prosecutors.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

In 30 seconds, what changes would you make? What would you recommend?

[Kevin B. Westell]

We say that section 286.1 should be struck. Sections 286.2 and 286.4 should be made narrower and it should be delineated to make it very clear that it's not meant to.... It shouldn't be banning the use, for example, by those who become a party to sex work...through providing prosocial measures to make sure that sex workers are able to work safely and appropriately privately.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Diab.

We'll now go to Mr. Fortin, for two and a half minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will now come back to you, Mr. Westell. I will speak quickly, because I don't have a lot of time. As you just heard, I have two and a half minutes to ask my questions.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about one thing in particular. Ms. Byrne told us that criminal groups and organizations are involved in the sex trade. She also told us that even young people 12 and older and going to school are involved in this industry as pimps.

When those involved are under 18, different Criminal Code provisions apply. That said, let's forget about that and get back to the problem of criminal groups generally.

First, in your opinion, as a representative of the Canadian Bar Association, what is the main difficulty Crown prosecutors face when they have to prosecute pimps who are members of criminal groups?

Second, in your opinion, could the current laws be reinforced to make them more severe or effective against criminal groups involved in the sex trade?

[Kevin B. Westell]

Ultimately, it comes back to precision. In terms of combatting the pimping-type behaviour that was mentioned, there needs to be precision, and there needs to be precision around the concepts of coercion and exploitation. The offences and the criminalization brought to bear through this act need to narrow in on those elements, and not be so—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

With respect to criminal groups, do you feel there is anything specific we should address?