Evidence of meeting #85 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commission.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Neil Wiberg  Lawyer, As an Individual
Nyki Kish  Associate Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Tony Paisana  Past Chair, Criminal Justice Section, The Canadian Bar Association
Lindsey Guice Smith  Executive Director, North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission
Kathryn M. Campbell  Professor, Criminology, Faculty of Social Sciences, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

I call the meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 85 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order of reference adopted by the House on June 21, 2023, the committee is continuing its study of Bill C-40, an act to amend the Criminal Code, to make consequential amendments to other acts and to repeal a regulation on miscarriage of justice reviews.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I note that the witnesses we have for the first hour are all attending by Zoom, so I will make a few comments. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. Click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. With regard to interpretation, for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of the floor, English or French.

For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand.

I have these cue cards. I know it's difficult when somebody is on a roll and speaking, but I will raise the 30-seconds card when 30 seconds is left and the time-is-up card when the time has elapsed. If the speaker has a couple of seconds left, I will let them proceed; otherwise, I will need to interrupt them. Don't take it personally. Unfortunately, that's how things work around here.

I want to advise the committee members that all the witnesses who are with us this afternoon have successfully completed the necessary audio tests.

Thank you everyone.

Now, without further ado, I would like to welcome the witnesses participating in our study on Bill C‑40.

With us are Neil Wiberg, lawyer, who is joining us by video conference and appearing as an individual; Nyki Kish, associate executive director of the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies; and Tony Paisana, past chair of the Canadian Bar Association.

You have up to five minutes for opening remarks. After that, we will go to questions by members.

I will ask Mr. Wiberg to please commence.

The floor is yours.

3:35 p.m.

Neil Wiberg Lawyer, As an Individual

Thank you.

My name is Neil Wiberg. It's an honour to appear in front of you.

Just as a little tombstone information for you, I was called to the bar of Alberta in 1984, was appointed QC in 2006 and I transferred to the bar of British Columbia in 2018. I'd also like to say that when I was in the Kamloops office, I was the deputy regional Crown counsel. I was honoured to work with Frank Caputo as one of the prosecutors in our office. He was an excellent prosecutor.

Frank first asked me to talk about how often we receive these types of reports from the minister. In my career, I've only seen one since 1984, and that actually was in this past year. It was a case in British Columbia, in Kamloops, where an individual was convicted of first-degree murder.

It turned out that there was some change in the science of drowning and hypothermia and some recent evidence came from new forensic pathologists that put the first-degree murder conviction in doubt. There's no doubt that this accused committed a sexual assault and killed the victim, but it actually should have been a manslaughter charge rather than a murder charge. The minister made the report and the Court of Appeal reversed the decision and entered a stay on the murder charge.

I've only seen one in my career, both in Alberta and in British Columbia.

I'd also like to say that since I began my career, a number of steps have taken place that I think are very positive and have reduced the chances of wrongful convictions.

First of all is disclosure. When I started out in 1984, all that was provided to the defence was their client's criminal record, their client's statement and a synopsis of the facts. Nothing else was disclosed. Witness statements were not disclosed. Police reports were not disclosed. Police notes were not disclosed. If there was tunnel vision that was obvious from seeing those documents, the defence would have no idea and wouldn't have seen those.

In cases like Morin, Marshall and Milgaard, there wasn't disclosure provided in those days. The Stinchcombe case that came in 1991 and ordered disclosure on all relevant material is very, very helpful.

Number two, DNA has really changed the scope and, in my opinion, has reduced the number of possible wrongful convictions. DNA not only convicts individuals but eliminates individuals.

I had a case when I was in Lac La Biche, a very strong circumstantial case, where there was some hair evidence. I thought there might have been reasonable and probable grounds to lay a charge of murder, but the police came to me and said there could be DNA available, not the nuclear DNA we're associated with, but mitochondrial DNA. There were hair-shafts in the victim's hands. As well, from a general warrant, there was hair plucked from the potential accused. The mitochondrial DNA was not available to be analyzed in Canada, but it could be in North Carolina.

As the Crown responsible for the case, I said: “This matter has to be examined. Send the DNA to North Carolina.” The samples were sent to North Carolina and came back as not a match. Think of it. This individual was inconvenienced for 15 minutes while a DNA sample was taken, and it turned out that he was never charged because the DNA was not a match. The acceptance of DNA as a science, the DNA warrant regime and the DNA data bank have greatly helped, in my opinion, to reduce the chances of wrongful convictions.

Third, there are cameras everywhere now, so you don't always have to rely on eyewitness testimony. The fact that there are cameras everywhere is very helpful in prosecuting cases and getting to the truth. I had a sad case in Edmonton where an 80-year-old woman was run down by a city bus. We suspected the bus driver might have been speaking on a cellphone. The video showed clearly that the woman was walking within a crosswalk and that she had waited for the walk light to come on.

I'd also mention that photo lineups have been changed and also that in-custody informants are rarely used any more. Those were a big problem. Also, provinces have adopted tunnel vision rules.

I was the Crown in the Mayerthorpe case. I spent two years giving pre-charge advice to the police. Once charges were laid, I was no longer the Crown, because—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank—

3:40 p.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

Neil Wiberg

—for tunnel-vision purposes, someone else came in.

My final point is this: We had James Lockyer and other people like that at our conferences, and they were—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Why don't you save that point for questioning?

Let me go to Madam Kish.

3:40 p.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

Neil Wiberg

Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Nyki Kish Associate Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies

Thank you, honourable members, for inviting me to be here today.

Since 1978, CAEFS has been the leading national organization supporting women and gender-diverse people at all stages of legal system involvement. We conduct monthly visits into Canada's federal penitentiaries for women. Our 22 Elizabeth Fry Societies nationally provide a range of services in prison and the community, including operating halfway houses, providing court support and diversion programs, and beyond.

Through this work, we come to know closely the people whom this bill impacts. We welcome Bill C-40, but caution that amendments are needed to ensure the act can meaningfully respond to miscarriages of justice.

Most women and gender-diverse people who become incarcerated are critically disadvantaged. The system is in crisis, with half of the people in prisons designated for women being indigenous. Much attention has been called to the systemic and social factors that lead women and gender-diverse people to be wrongfully convicted. The justice system rests upon its ability to be just, yet we posit that, presently, miscarriages of justice for the populations we serve are systemic. This is in part because conditions in our provincial jails are deplorable, characterized by frequent lockdowns, isolation, poor food sources, dismal health care, very expensive, restrictive access to family, and beyond.

Many disclose to us that, up against losing their children, employment and housing, they plead guilty, regardless of whether or not they are, in order to get out faster. From our perspective, pleading out is a very common experience. Individuals make the best decisions they can within a forced choice, where no outcome is a good one. We receive almost constant requests to help people redress their convictions. Many share how their previous lawyers discouraged them from filing appeals and often encouraged them to plead guilty in the first place. We direct people toward innocence projects and watch the lengthy process unfold. Often, we see them give up.

The pressure to be guilty doesn't stop at a verdict for the wrongfully convicted. Once sentenced, women and gender-diverse people who maintain their innocence experience a number of punishments and exclusions, because they are not seen to be taking responsibility. This begins with being denied access to core correctional programming, which is a precursor for access to a host of additional programs and services, and a requirement to move to less restrictive security classifications.

Much of what it takes to survive incarceration—visiting family, accessing work and education, and accessing the legislated process of gradual release—is significantly restricted for people who maintain innocence, due to their being kept in higher-security classifications. Also, as most supportive processes are only conditionally approved, prison officials must complete assessments for each decision. Primary considerations are the level of responsibility and institutional adjustment a person demonstrates. It's very difficult to be assessed as “adjusting well” in an institution whose programs you cannot participate in. Doing well in prison and reintegrating into the community via parole becomes next to impossible. People become pressured to indicate guilt in order to successfully navigate the system, or they maintain their innocence and face a harsher version of incarceration, which elevates the risk of chronic adverse mental and physical health outcomes and institutionalization.

We submitted an associated brief that emphasizes amendments that ensure incarcerated applicants aren't punished as a result of pursuing redress. It endorses the UBC innocence project's key amendment to legislate the possibility of exceptional review where appeals have not been exhausted, and to legislate defined timelines associated with the commission. Perhaps nothing could be underscored more than the irreversible impacts on the life course of wrongfully convicted people.

At present, wrongful convictions take years or, more generally, decades to overturn, and life is simply not that long. We witness the cumulative loss experienced, especially for those with long or life sentences—loss of mental and physical health, and loss of family and social connections. Time is an irreturnable resource to take from people, and we don't often contemplate its associated costs: the loss of milestones and rites of passage—

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

There's a problem with the interpretation, Madam Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Let me stop you for a moment. Apparently, we have difficulty in the room with no translation. Wait one moment, please.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

We're used to this. Let's just call it a parliamentary problem.

I can hear you clearly now.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

All right. Thank you.

Please continue.

3:45 p.m.

Associate Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies

Nyki Kish

Thank you.

Time is an non-returnable resource, and we don't often contemplate its associated costs such as the loss of milestones or rites of passage, but we see many women and gender-diverse people lose their reproductive years to miscarriages of justice. They lose love, marriages, divorces and careers and make career changes. This is the stuff taken, and this is the stuff that life is made of, and we only get one life.

There will be a material and significant benefit to the goals of justice and to safe, fair Canadian institutions through establishing the amendments offered in our brief and those offered by our colleagues.

I look forward to answering any questions you may have.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you very much.

I will now ask Mr. Paisana to please proceed with your remarks.

3:50 p.m.

Tony Paisana Past Chair, Criminal Justice Section, The Canadian Bar Association

Thank you for the invitation to present the CBA's views on Bill C-40. I'm the past chair of the national criminal section. I've worked with the UBC innocence project for the past 10 years, and I teach, at the University of British Columbia Law School, a course on preventing wrongful convictions.

As you know, the CBA is a national association of over 37,000 lawyers, students, notaries and academics. An important aspect of our mandate is seeking improvements in the law and the administration of justice. That is what brings us here today. Our submission was prepared by the national criminal justice section, which comprises both Crown and defence lawyers.

The CBA supports Bill C-40 and offers some suggestions for improvement, two of which I'll highlight in my remarks. Before doing so, however, I wish to express our clear support for some aspects of Bill C-40.

For decades, lawyers and others have laboured under a slow, difficult-to-navigate system for post-conviction review. Bill C-40 represents a sea change in how post-conviction review work will be done in this country. It is a welcome change, one that we hope means that miscarriages of justice will be rectified and, more importantly, rectified more quickly.

The creation of an independent commission we hope will improve the transparency and efficiency of post-conviction review. In particular, we support the new standard of review contained in Bill C-40. The existing standard that a reasonable basis to conclude a miscarriage of justice likely occurred is cumbersome, difficult to apply and leaves many potential wrongful convictions outside the ambit of review. The new “reasonable grounds to conclude” standard solves these issues and is a welcome development.

In addition, we applaud the federal government's explicit inclusion of posthumous cases in the commission's mandate. Wrongful convictions affect not only the accused but their family, friends and the wider community. Allowing for posthumous review provides an avenue for those affected by wrongful convictions to seek redress.

In terms of improvements, our brief lays out some of those areas. We support some suggestions made by other witnesses who have already testified, and I'll highlight two points, as I mentioned. First, as set out in our brief, we support the inclusion of a new unsafe ground of appeal in the Criminal Code. The most important and immediate step of rectifying a wrongful conviction exists in the Court of Appeal. Indeed, for the vast majority of accused persons, it is the forum of last resort; however, the Court of Appeal is a statutory court, meaning that it is specifically constrained by the Criminal Code. Where the court is faced with a case that does not meet the exceptionally high threshold of unreasonable verdict, it cannot intervene even if a lurking doubt exists as to the accused's guilt.

Unsurprisingly, given this landscape, many of Canada's most infamous wrongful convictions were unsuccessfully appealed, sometimes more than once. Indeed, there is a strange history of some of Canada's appellate cases being connected to wrongful convictions. The leading case on unreasonable verdict, in fact, was the Yebes case, a recent B.C. miscarriage of justice, a murder conviction that was overturned nearly 40 years after the fact.

One of the leading decisions on confronting hostile witnesses, Milgaard bears the name of the namesake of this legislation. In dismissing Mr. Milgaard's appeal in 1971, the Saskatchewan Court of Appeal said that the evidence could properly be found to support the verdict, that is, it “could have” as opposed to it “must have”. As you see, the “could” standard is a low one on appellate review, and there is a duty to prevent wrongful convictions at every stage of the process, including specifically on appeal, and changing the Criminal Code to add an unsafe verdict would address this issue.

Our second area of improvement relates to the eligibility criteria for the commission. We echo the concerns raised by others that the mandatory requirement of appellate final decision will potentially create a significant barrier to wrongful convictions becoming uncovered. Those who enter a false guilty plea, for example, will have to go through the complicated and awkward process of trying to overturn a guilty plea. Having falsely plead guilty, there is a strong likelihood that these individuals are unsophisticated, intimidated by court process and are otherwise at a disadvantage in navigating the appellate regime. Make no mistake, bringing an appeal is complex and requires expertise.

Ivan Henry's wrongful conviction is a poignant example of what this barrier might do. He was convicted in 1982 and designated a dangerous offender. Unrepresented, he filed numerous applications and failed at various courts and ministers reviewing his conviction. In 1984 his appeal was dismissed for want of prosecution, because he had not filed transcripts. He never had an appeal and never had a final judgment. He would therefore be ineligible for the current regime.

This, I say, is a problem and should be rectified by a simple amendment treating an accused who has not had an appeal the same as one who has had an appeal but has not appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada, that is, a factored analysis where it is just one factor to determine the eligibility, the fact that they have not filed an appeal.

The legislation currently contemplates that very process with someone who has not filed leave to the Supreme Court of Canada, and there is no reason this cannot be extended to accused persons who have not had an appeal.

Those are my comments.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you very much.

We will now begin with our questions. Members will have six minutes each.

We will start with Mr. Moore.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for appearing today and offering your perspectives on this legislation.

Mr. Wiberg, you seemed to be just wrapping up your remarks. I have only six minutes, but I'll give you 30 seconds or so to finish your thoughts.

3:55 p.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

Neil Wiberg

I was just going to say that it's the role of a prosecution service to make sure that all the Crowns are aware of wrongful convictions. When I was in Alberta, we had James Lockyer as a guest speaker. He told all of us about the history of wrongful convictions and the problems the Crown should look for. That's one of the obligations, I think, of a prosecution service.

Also, as a result of the Sophonow committee, our executive brought in new changes to photo lineups, based on scientific research; to the discouraged use of in-custody informants, who are almost never used because they're very dangerous and contribute to wrongful convictions; and also to rules for tunnel vision.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you for that, sir.

Frank Caputo is unable to be here today, but I will pass along your comments.

3:55 p.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

He'll like everything you said, for sure.

I want to ask if you have any thoughts on the threshold that's being proposed in Bill C-40, moving from reasonable grounds to conclude that a miscarriage of justice “likely” occurred to reasonable grounds to conclude that a miscarriage of justice “may have” occurred.

One would think that many individuals who are convicted feel that they shouldn't be there and that it's unfair that they're there, but when we get to factual innocence, as you touched on in some of your commentary, there are some tools available now that were not available even 10 years ago, and certainly not 20 or 30 years ago.

Do you have any thoughts on that threshold? It is a threshold that's considerably lower than the current existing one as well as in the United Kingdom.

3:55 p.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

Neil Wiberg

For both prosecutors and defence lawyers, a wrongful conviction is the worst thing that can happen. I agree with my friend from the Canadian Bar Association on the standard that the CBA recommends. I would applaud that and recommend that as well.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Okay.

Ms. Kish, you talked about a miscarriage of justice. How do you define that? We've heard very broad testimony from individuals at this committee. Some want to look at almost painting the entire system with a certain brush, suggesting that there can be no rightful convictions under our system. Others say that a wrongful conviction should focus on people who actually have not committed a crime, and that in fact we should be out looking for the real perpetrator of the crime once that process is finished.

In your view and in the view of the Fry Society, what is the importance of factual innocence in deciding whether a conviction should be overturned?

3:55 p.m.

Associate Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies

Nyki Kish

Thank you. That's an excellent question.

We spend a lot of time in our organization speaking about wrongful convictions, over-convictions, systemic discrimination, and of course all the broad societal factors that lead people into pathways of incarceration where we believe the viable alternative is a community response to whatever has happened.

Speaking to this bill, in Bill C-40 we see a tremendous number of women and gender-diverse people. I mean, we're talking about a population with an average education level, at the point of sentencing, of grade 8. People are very unaware of the legal processes they're becoming swept up in. In combination with the conditions that people experience in pretrial incarceration, we see this resulting in individuals just pleading guilty, or, at the base, not understanding the processes they're going through. We see a lot of people who we believe are factually innocent, and then we see many more who we believe are over-convicted and overincarcerated.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

On that issue of over-convicted or overincarcerated, what precisely do you mean by that? This is something that we've heard from other witnesses. Are you suggesting that if a group is overrepresented, for an individual who's a member of that group this should be grounds for finding that they've been wrongfully convicted even if in fact they have committed the crime they've been charged with and convicted of?