Evidence of meeting #9 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Ms. Davis.
Thank you, Ms. Dhillon.
Next, for six minutes, is Mr. Fortin.
1:30 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have a few questions for Ms. Davis because I'm not sure I understand her position. I understand from her testimony that she deplores the fact that the clients, or the buyers, are penalized, because that poses a problem for the prostitute.
I would like to digress for a moment. I've been warned a number of times that the concept of sex worker encompasses many people and many realities. That includes the prostitute, but also the pimp, the person who manages the prostitute's business, as well as the bodyguard, the driver, and so on. However, we may not want the same rules to apply to all these people. So I want to make it clear to Ms. Davis and the other witnesses that I'm going to use the words “prostitute” without any ill intent, without trying to be hard on anyone. I want to make that clear.
Ms. Davis, as I understand it, the prostitute does not commit a criminal offence, but the client does. You say that this prohibition should probably be removed, since it would allow the prostitute to talk to her client before being alone with him.
If we decriminalize the purchase of sexual services, what prohibitions will remain? What do you think should continue to be considered criminal offences?
1:30 p.m.
Director, BC Coalition of Experiential Communities
I'm not sure we really need to keep a ban on anything in this regard. Unfortunately, there is this hundred-year-long stigma about sex work. There are a lot of myths and rhetoric that have been perpetuated, not unlike by some of the witnesses who have given false information here.
The clients are not the boogeymen that they are made out to be. Honestly, by criminalizing them, you are not motivating them to report exploitation should they witness it. These guys are on the front line—
1:30 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Ms. Davis, I'm sorry to interrupt, but my time is limited. You have already said what you are saying, and I understood. Do you think we should simply decriminalize prostitution, and that all the provisions concerning prohibitions related to prostitution should be removed from the Criminal Code? Is that correct?
1:30 p.m.
Director, BC Coalition of Experiential Communities
Yes, it is. However, I think we should listen to police and ensure that they have the tools they need under other legislation where they seem to be struggling. For example—
1:30 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Ms. Davis, I have to interrupt you again, and I'm sorry. My time was only six minutes, and I guess I only have about three minutes left. Thank you for your answer.
Ms. Lukings, earlier you mentioned that people are afraid to turn to the police. You also said that some of the people you worked with or were friends with had passed away. All of this is very sad, and no one is happy about it, obviously.
In your opinion, how can the situation be addressed? Do you also think that everything about prostitution should be legalized? Or do you think that only the purchase of sexual services should be legalized, or that nothing should be legalized at all? How do you see this?
I would like you to tell me concretely, in one minute, what should be legalized and what should be prohibited.
1:35 p.m.
Juris Doctor, Author and Researcher, As an Individual
In the simplest way possible, we need to repeal all of the PCEPA laws—all of them. Then, as I mentioned, there is a tabling of the coercive control offence, which would allow us to refocus on the relationship rather than the work, because it's not about the relationship. You can work at McDonald's and be exploited when you go home, either way; it's a domestic relationship issue, in that case.
1:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I understand your point about human trafficking and abuse. But what about prostitution? You listed some sections of the Criminal Code.
Actually, can we have this document?
Do we have this document, Mr. Chair? I personally haven't seen it.
1:35 p.m.
Juris Doctor, Author and Researcher, As an Individual
Absolutely. You might already have it. It will be in my brief.
1:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Okay. Could you send us your brief? I didn't get it. I don't know if other committee members did. In fact, could you have your brief translated so that it is in both official languages and sent to us?
1:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Ms. Lukings.
So I come back to what I was saying. Earlier, you listed a number of sections of the Criminal Code that establish prohibitions and that you think should be abolished. Can you send us a list of those sections?
April 1st, 2022 / 1:35 p.m.
Juris Doctor, Author and Researcher, As an Individual
Absolutely I can do that.
1:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I have one last question for you, Ms. Lukings.
You have a number of years of experience in sex work. I just want to get some clarification. Again, I don't want to be rude, but I would like to know if you were in this business as a prostitute or if you kept a brothel. What exactly was your role in the sex industry?
1:35 p.m.
Juris Doctor, Author and Researcher, As an Individual
I've had many roles. I worked for a while in massage parlours. That would be as an employee of a massage parlour. I also was the general manager—
1:35 p.m.
Bloc
1:35 p.m.
Juris Doctor, Author and Researcher, As an Individual
I was giving the massage. I was the sex worker.
1:35 p.m.
Juris Doctor, Author and Researcher, As an Individual
Also, for a while there was a whole.... Anyway, it was in St. John's. Then I was the manager of a massage parlour while simultaneously working there.
I did hire people. We advertised. I created an advertising website when we were no longer able to use Backpage and Craigslist. I created a site. I think it matters that I didn't charge anyone to advertise on it. It was free and community run, with volunteer moderators who were also within the community. We had a safe advertising place, and it was—
1:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Ms. Lukings, my time is almost up.
In short, you have been working in the management of the sex industry for the past few years. Is that right?
1:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Mr. Fortin.
Mr. Garrison, go ahead for six minutes, please.
1:35 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today.
On the point of who is an expert witness, I think we have people with both lived and academic research experience today who would qualify as experts under anybody's definition of who would be experts on this topic.
I'd like to turn to you, Dr. Krüsi and Dr. Goldenberg, on what we've have many people saying. Is the problem just certain provisions of PCEPA, or is it the overall framework? From your academic research, what is it that causes the harm? Could we fix this by just changing a few things, or is it the overall scheme of PCEPA that causes the harms?
1:35 p.m.
Dr. Shira Goldenberg Assistant Professor, Centre for Gender and Sexual Health Equity
Maybe I'll jump in here.
Yes, we very much agree with our colleagues. We think the overall framework is actually the problem. We do feel that this legislation, like many other similar pieces internationally and that have preceded it in Canada, is really based on this conflation of sex work with the idea of trafficking or exploitation that is very much based on stigmatizing beliefs and often inaccurate knowledge.
From what we see in our evidence, really highlighting that the various provisions of the current law as it stands all create health inequity and barriers to safety and health access for sex workers, we very much agree with our colleagues that the full repeal of the law is really what we would advocate for.
I'll see if Dr. Krüsi has anything they'd like to add to that.