Evidence of meeting #9 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:30 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
A takeaway message is I think with a quick personal story. I was stabbed at work, as a stripper. I couldn't turn to the victims compensation board, which no longer exists in Ontario. It's been reformatted by Premier Ford. They said that if you were engaged in a criminal activity at the time, you couldn't access it.
I think that's a perfect example for why decriminalization is so important.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Mr. Naqvi.
Now, for six minutes, we will go to Mr. Fortin.
2:30 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Sayers, I'll continue with you, if I may.
From what I understand from your testimony, prostitution should be decriminalized. We have to see what the effects would be if we decriminalized it completely.
We know that, at present, it is not a criminal offence to offer or sell sexual services. What is a criminal act is the fact of buying them, the fact that someone solicits prostitution or the fact that someone is living off the avails of prostitution, for example, the pimp or the person who manages the activities of the prostitute.
If we eliminate all of this as criminal acts, we will find ourselves in a situation where it will be completely legal to prostitute oneself, completely legal to purchase the services of a prostitute and completely legal to manage the activities of that man or woman. Aren't you afraid that, if that happens, we'll find ourselves in deplorable situations like the ones Ms. Smith told us about a few minutes ago?
I understand that when it involves a minor, it is always considered a criminal offence. I imagine that you aren't asking us to allow the prostitution of minors. That said, even when people are 18 years of age or older, it is still worrisome, to say the least, to allow free prostitution, the purchase of sexual services and the management of those services, as if it were any other business.
Aren't you afraid that this will lead to situations where people will sell or use someone else's body, man or woman, for financial gain?
2:30 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Can you just rephrase your question? I didn't get a question out of that.
2:30 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Aren't you afraid that by decriminalizing prostitution, by removing the criminal nature of prostitution activities, we will be creating a market where the body of a woman or a man, young or old, becomes an object to be sold?
2:30 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Yes, and I thank my co-panellist Ms. Smith for sharing her story. I understand that it takes a lot of strength to do that.
I'd like to turn the attention to my brief, in which I outlined that whether we're talking about decriminalization or legalization, we're talking about regulation of prostitution in some way. Bedford said that you can regulate prostitution but you can't do so at the expense of sex workers. Exactly. You can support victims and survivors of exploitation, but you can't do it at the expense of sex workers.
Therefore, if we were to hypothetically remove the laws tomorrow, there are other laws on the books that police can turn to. What Ms. Davis said earlier was, let's support the police—I can't believe I'm saying that—in terms of helping them implement those laws.
The tools are there. Let's use them.
2:30 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
You told us about the New Zealand model. In your view, it should be updated from a Canadian perspective.
Specifically, what elements of the New Zealand model do you think we should retain and adapt to the reality here?
You have about a minute and a half to respond.
2:35 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
What I think was important in the New Zealand model was that they heard directly from sex workers. I think in the implementation of PCEPA that has been horribly missed.
We have to, as I said, return to Bedford. What does it say? What does it tell Parliament it can and cannot do? It says exactly that you can regulate prostitution, but you can't do it at the expense of sex workers.
2:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
That's the lawyer speaking. I'd rather hear the opinion of Ms. Sayers, the individual.
Of course, we're all familiar with the Bedford decision. I'd like you to tell us about the New Zealand model from your perspective. Today, you are a lawyer, but your experience and your previous activities in dance and prostitution mean that you probably have a different opinion from what you would have had if you had not experienced that.
I would like to hear from Naomi Sayers as an individual, not as a lawyer.
2:35 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
I understand.
I'm not giving a lawyer opinion. I think it's very important that we turn our mind to what Bedford says, because I think we're moving away from that each time we go to the data, each time we go to the ancillary benefits.
I think that's the harm, and we're moving away from what Ms. Lukings had said, what Ms. Davis has said and what Andrea and her co-panellist had said. The data is very clear in that regard, and Bedford had said that one person is enough to satisfy that it's not charter-compliant.
In terms of my own personal story, I've shared a couple of personal stories already today. The police refused to help me and with the systems that were set up, when it's criminalized, I wasn't able to access the supports. I think it's very clear that when you do criminalize any aspect of sex work and target it, you're further alienating and isolating the workers.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for appearing today, and particularly I want to thank Ms. Smiley for reminding us that the growing inequalities in Canadian society are a constant context with all of the issues that we deal with.
I want to thank Ms. Smith for telling her personal story here in a very public forum. It takes an enormous amount of strength to do so and I know that it will inspire others who have or may have been exploited to do better things in their lives.
Ms. Smith, in one of your answers you said that you thought perhaps the criminalization would prevent reporting of incidents of exploitation. Can you just say a bit more about that and maybe relate it to your own....? Are you saying that because things are criminalized people won't report when they see exploitation?
2:35 p.m.
Neuroscience and Mental Health Student, Carleton University, As an Individual
Yes, for sure.
I did hear that some people have regular clientele because they have been doing sex work for a long time, but I actually had the same experience. It was continually the same people who I was seeing, but they weren't reporting anything. I don't know if it was because it was criminalized. I don't know if it was because they didn't care. I don't know what their reasoning was, but I did see the same clientele numerous times and I was a 14-year-old girl and no one seemed to speak up about it.
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
You said the one time you went home there were police and social workers waiting for you. Was that because someone had reported the exploitation?
2:35 p.m.
Neuroscience and Mental Health Student, Carleton University, As an Individual
No, it was....
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Don't share any details. I don't want you to share any details you're not—
2:35 p.m.
Neuroscience and Mental Health Student, Carleton University, As an Individual
I was 14 and I was no longer going to high school, so at some point social services stepped in. I would say it took about eight months for them to realize that I had dropped out of high school as a 14-year-old girl and that was reported to social services and then they did a little more digging into what was going on.
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
It was those other regulations that brought this to the attention of social workers.
2:35 p.m.
Neuroscience and Mental Health Student, Carleton University, As an Individual
Yes.
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Okay.
I want to turn to you, Ms. Sayers. I'm going to ask you a question from a perspective I don't share but that we've heard several times when sex workers who are relatively successful and who live in urban areas have given testimony to us.
Others say, well, this is just a few privileged sex workers or just a few people in urban areas who hold these opinions about sex work. How do you respond to that attempt to undermine your testimony?
April 1st, 2022 / 2:40 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
That's a really good example.
I'll share a story from law school. I was sitting in law school in constitutional litigation class and working on a theoretical challenge to Bill C-36, PCEPA, which we're here on today. We were building our fact pattern, and I remember my constitutional law prof saying, “That doesn't happen.” I said, “Yes, it does.”
What he was referring to was my personal experience. Working in the northern region, you have to have a driver. If you don't have a driver, you will be hitchhiking. There is no Greyhound bus. There are no cabs. Cabs will not take an indigenous person anywhere unless they charge exorbitant fees. If you do the research that's out there, the cabs even will drop off indigenous women in particular in spots that they didn't ask to be brought to. I said, “You know, PCEPA prevents indigenous women—in particular, young indigenous women—from having those supports.”
The reason I talk about my story so much is that it's not heard. It's not considered. I entered when I was 18. I was still in high school. I was learning to live with a brain injury. I had just survived a horrible car accident and had almost died. I was working two minimum-wage jobs. When you have a brain injury, you have headaches—migraines. You're tired. I was like, “I can't achieve my education goals to go to university if I'm working two minimum-wage jobs.” I was not living at home, and sex work was there.
If you attack minimum wage, if you attack safe housing, if you tackle those other supports.... Maybe I never would have gone into sex work. I don't know, but it got me out. It led me to where I am today. I'm a lawyer and I help other victims and survivors. I think that's key.
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
In your experience, would you say that the opinion that PCEPA should be repealed in its entirety is broadly shared among those who are working in the sex industry?
