National Defence Committee on June 6th, 2007

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This is the special joint committee meeting between the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development and the Standing Committee on National Defence, Wednesday, June 6, 2007.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

We're televised today, ladies and gentlemen. We're holding a briefing session on the handling of persons detained by the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Over the course of approximately 60 meetings, including today's meeting, the foreign affairs and international development committee has had the benefit of no less than 15 appearances by cabinet ministers in the 39th Parliament.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Similarly, the Standing Committee on National Defence has held 58 meetings. We've had eight appearances by cabinet ministers, and we thank our cabinet colleagues for being so generous with their time and responding to our requests, the requests we have made over their period of time in cabinet. We appreciate their being here today.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Those ministers with us here today are the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of Foreign Affairs; the Honourable Stockwell Day, Minister of Public Safety; the Honourable Gordon O'Connor, Minister of National Defence; the Honourable Josée Verner, Minister of International Cooperation; and the Honourable Helena Guergis, Secretary of State, Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

As usual, committee members, we will hear the statements and we will commence a previously agreed-to agenda for questions. We have asked the ministers to keep collectively the time used for their opening statements to 20 to 25 minutes. We will be very closely guarding the clock as we go through the rounds of questioning to make sure we have as much opportunity for questions as possible. I remind all members here at the committee, and ministers as well, to address both the questions and answers through the chair.

I'm not sure what the order of proceeding is for who is going to start, but ladies and gentlemen, you have 20 to 25 minutes. Please start.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Thank you both, Chairman Sorenson and Chairman Casson.

Colleagues, I'm very pleased to be before the committee again, and I'm pleased, of course, to be here with my cabinet colleagues to discuss this important matter with you. Thank you for the opportunity to clarify on some very important matters, particularly with respect to detainees.

As you know, Canada's assistance to Afghanistan accords with our highest international objectives to promote global security, freedom and democracy, human rights, and the rule of law, and of course, to reduce the terrible effects of poverty on a population that has been devastated by generations of war.

Delivered at Afghanistan's invitation, our support for the people of that country is part of a large international effort. It reflects a wide consensus between Afghanistan's democratically elected government and the UN and other world organizations, dozens of donor nations and the 37 participants in the UN-mandated, NATO-led international security assistance force.

The task in Afghanistan, Chairmen, is multifaceted: bringing security to a war-torn country, reinforcing the legitimacy of the state, reintegrating it into the international community, and fostering social and economic reconstruction.

CIDA was providing assistance even before 2001. DND is helping liberate the country from the scourge of the Taliban, and my department, Foreign Affairs, re-established diplomatic relations with Afghanistan since January 2002. Correctional Service Canada was engaged in mentoring and advising Afghan prison officials as early as 2002, and RCMP officers of course have been deployed since 2005. My colleagues will speak more specifically to those portfolios.

But our objectives collectively will only be reached by providing the tools to the Afghan government itself—the tools that it needs to serve its people.

To achieve an Afghanistan that is secure, free, peaceful, and sustainable, Afghanistan needs to develop effective and professional police, courts and prison systems. This is what will ensure that Afghans have confidence in their national government, leading to greater long-term stability and prosperity.

To that end, we recently concluded a supplementary or enhanced arrangement on the transfer of detainees with the Government of Afghanistan. This arrangement complements the original arrangement that was signed by the previous Liberal government in 2005.

One of the key elements of this supplementary arrangement is that it spells out in detail the full, unrestricted, and private access that our officials and members of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission will receive to all detainees transferred by Canadian Forces to Afghan authorities. This arrangement gives us the opportunity to help Afghans live up to their existing human rights and other obligations under international law, and encourage the application of the rule of law at all stages of the detention process.

In the last few weeks our provincial reconstruction team, or PRT, hosted an important human rights workshop attended by representatives of the army, police, corrections officials, the Attorney General's office, and the national security directorate of Afghanistan. This was the second of two planned workshops.

Canada is providing equipment and uniforms to police in Kandahar and financial support nationwide to ensure that the Afghan National Police salaries are paid securely and on time. I must say that one of the more touching experiences I had in visiting Afghanistan was to see the training, and Canadian officials turning over these uniforms, which were made locally but paid for by the Government of Canada, to the Afghan police. The pride they felt in those uniforms, which sported the Afghan flag, was nothing short of amazing. I'm sure it was very reminiscent of the feelings our own RCMP have upon graduation from Depot.

Enormous diplomatic resources have already been dedicated to Afghanistan.

For example, our new ambassador in Kabul is the most senior Canadian official in Afghanistan, and he is ensuring that our engagement remains focused on the core, overriding objectives that motivate and validate Canada's presence. In the south, we are installing a new senior civilian coordinator to lead our work in Kandahar and throughout the region.

We are increasing the number of working-level officials in Kabul and Kandahar devoted specifically to diplomacy, development, and security sector reform. We are not alone, of course. Canada works actively through the United Nations, where we are a member of a core group responsible for the annual reauthorization of UNAMA, the body that leads all UN political developments and human rights activities in Afghanistan.

We are also working within the G8. I chaired the session on Afghanistan at the G8 foreign ministers' meeting just last week in Potsdam, Germany. That meeting also brought in the Afghan and Pakistani foreign ministers for a special statement to encourage further action on border management issues.

Only two days ago at the Canada-European Union Summit in Berlin, the Prime Minister announced our participation in a pair of joint policing training projects.

Diplomacy holds everything together. It's what led to the Afghanistan Compact, which was signed in London and to which Canada and allies are key signatories, and other agreements that structure international engagement in Afghanistan.

We are leveraging our resources across government departments and collaborating with international partners to deliver coherent programming that builds security, prosperity, and stability in support of a national government that has the confidence of its people. I would suggest that this is one of the intangible but very real things we see happening in Afghanistan: the confidence of their own government and people to have a hand in their affairs.

This is the message I want to bring to you today, my colleagues. It's a message that we must continue to support the people of Afghanistan and their government as they continue to build and reconstruct their own country.

I'll turn it over to my colleagues.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Minister MacKay.

Minister O'Connor.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Minister of National Defence]

Chair, members of the committee, before I begin I'd like to remind you why Canada is in Afghanistan.

First and foremost, Canada is in Afghanistan at the request of its democratically-elected, sovereign government.

Secondly, Canada is in Afghanistan to work alongside 36 other nations, under NATO command, and with a United Nations mandate.

And thirdly, and most importantly, we are there to provide for the security of Canadians.

Afghanistan was once a failed state that served as a haven for terrorists whose reach extended around the globe. In this mission Canada is doing its utmost to prevent Afghanistan from becoming that failed state once again.

As you know, we are pursuing this mission not only with aid dollars and civilian governance assistance, but with effective military force as well. Approximately 2,500 Canadian Forces personnel support the ISAF mission. They are helping to provide the secure and stable environment that is needed for the legitimate authority of the Afghan government to take root and for reconstruction and development to move forward.

In the course of providing that security, the Canadian Forces may capture detainees. This afternoon I would like to highlight how the Canadian Forces fulfill—

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Minister, we have a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Bachand.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I do not understand what is happening in the room today. We were asked to attend here today to have a discussion on the issue of detainees in Afghanistan. The ministers will have to explain what the RCMP is doing there, what CIDA is doing there, and what Foreign Affairs is doing there. I think we are veering off course, as our original objective, by the way, was to question the Minister of Defence. We have gone from one department, that is Defence, to five departments, and the meeting has been reduced from three hours to two. I think this is some kind of cover-up and I would like some explanation as to why, in the documents we were sent, there is talk about detainees, and why now, we are being told about Canadian Forces in Afghanistan in general.

Is this an effort to shield the Minister of Defence? Is that the objective?

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I don't think it's really a point of order. We've brought these five ministers here. We're going to have the opportunity to question them. Just as we do not determine which questions you may ask, it has been traditional in this House that we have afforded the ministers when they come the opportunity to say what they want in regard to their part of the file of Afghanistan. We'll listen to those ministers and we'll give you certainly an opportunity to ask whichever question you may choose.

This time will not come out of the minister's time. We would ask Minister O'Connor to continue.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

In the course of providing that security, the Canadian Forces may capture detainees. This afternoon I'd like to highlight how the Canadian Forces fulfill their roles and responsibilities regarding our detainee process in Afghanistan.

The procedures our military members must follow in detainee situations are clearly outlined in their theatre standing orders. These orders emphasize that the Canadian Forces must treat all persons humanely in accordance with the standard set out by the Third Geneva Convention. As a general rule, detainees captured by the Canadian Forces are to be brought back to our temporary transfer facility in Kandahar to be processed and questioned. If a detainee is found to be injured or wounded, that individual will receive the same medical treatment with the same urgency as a Canadian casualty.

In fact, all detainees must be medically examined when admitted to Canada's temporary transfer facility, and then again when they are transferred or released. This allows us to confirm that no physical mistreatment of detainees occurs while they are in Canadian hands.

While the Canadian Forces are authorized to detain and temporarily hold persons in Afghanistan, Canada maintains a policy of ultimately releasing detainees or transferring them to the Afghan authorities in accordance with Canada's overall policy objectives in Afghanistan.

The Canadian Forces will transfer detainees to the Afghan National Directorate of Security, and all transfers must be authorized by the commander of Canada's Joint Task Force in Afghanistan.

Every time a detainee is transferred, the authorities at the NDS are provided with a copy of our detainee arrangements. This set of arrangements makes clear Canada's expectations and Afghanistan's responsibilities concerning the proper treatment of detainees once they are in Afghan custody. A second copy of the arrangements is given to the detainee being transferred so the detainee is fully aware of his or her rights. If on the other hand the detainee is found not to be a threat and is released by the Canadian Forces, our military personnel give that person back all his or her possessions and try to help them get on their way. Regardless of whether a detainee is transferred or released, a report of the detention is kept on file by the Canadian Forces.

Throughout all of this, representatives from Foreign Affairs inform the right Canadian, Afghan, and international authorities, including the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, of what's going on at the required times.

In conclusion, the military's responsibility for detainees begins when suspected insurgents are captured. They are then brought to our holding facility, where they receive medical assessment and appropriate medical care if they need it. They are then processed for handover to Afghan authorities or released back into the community.

Thank you.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, Minister O'Connor.

Minister Day, I politely remind you that there are 12 of the 25 minutes.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you very much, Chairmen, and thank you also to my colleagues, particularly for your interest in the situation that is very important to all of us here, in Canada as well as in Afghanistan.

The areas falling under my portfolio relate to the RCMP and Correctional Service. There are nine police officers serving in Afghanistan, varying between Kabul and Kandahar. Eight are from the RCMP; one is a municipal force officer. That number is projected to move up to 22, following the Prime Minister's commitment. That will be done in the very near future.

There are two individuals from Correctional Service Canada who valiantly volunteered to work in Afghanistan to assist in capacity building in the prisons. I might add that the magnitude of the task is really something for us to consider, and also the accomplishment to date.

Historically over the last number of decades—or really, the last number of centuries—Afghanistan has been ruled variously, at the very best by a feudal type of system, but more commonly by warlords or invading armies. It has existed historically as a system of brutal revenge upon one's enemies.

Now we have a situation where detainees—that's the legal technical word—are not simply people who jaywalked and then were apprehended. These people are suspected terrorists. Most were apprehended in combat situations. They know no limits when it comes to the suicide killing of others.

In a very short period of time, we have seen the people in Afghanistan—the actual regime and those operating the prisons—go from a brutal revenge type of system to having a human rights commission, respecting our demand that even their enemies have human rights and need to be treated well in detention. There has been significant progress on that.

The reason I share that with you, as I conclude my remarks in well under 12 minutes, is that intentionally or not—and I'm not being accusatory here—the line of questioning that's been pursued over the last few months has had a certain tenor, implying that our troops were less than honourable in the apprehension, questioning, and the oversight of the so-called detainees, the suspected terrorists. I'm not saying that it was intentional, but that has been the air of the questioning, so much so that our troops tell us that they think they're being accused of doing wrong things. Yet the lengths they go to in order to show their humanitarian approach to these suspected terrorists has been noted.

I would hope that in the questioning that comes today—and I appreciate this time of questioning, I think it's valid—that is the sentiment expressed: that we are concerned about the treatment of suspected terrorists, but we are not approaching this in an accusatory tone towards our brave men and women in uniform.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Minister Day.

Minister Verner, Minister of International Cooperation.

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Minister of International Cooperation]

Chairmen, dear colleagues, I am pleased to appear before you again to talk about Canada's crucial role in the reconstruction and development of Afghanistan.

Canada is one of Afghanistan's largest donors. In 2006-2007, Canada allocated $139 million for reconstruction efforts. We support development programs in Afghanistan that directly meet people's needs. Our goal is to help the people of Afghanistan to own their development.

I visited Afghanistan twice, six months apart. I met with representatives of the Government of Afghanistan who are deeply committed to rebuilding their country, including Mr. Zia, the Minister of Rural Recovery and Development, and Mr. Atmar, the Minister of Education. We talked about the issues involved in reconstruction and the progress achieved, and I can tell you that we are achieving results. I was able to see this for myself in the field.

In April 2007, for example, I visited a project in Sola Kalay, a village 25 kilometres from Kandahar. I sat down with members of the community development council to talk about the irrigation project they are executing through the National Solidarity Program, which is largely funded by Canada.

The National Solidarity Program—the NSP—and the Microfinance Investment Support Facility for Afghanistan—MISFA—are yielding extraordinary results. As of March 31, 2007, MISFA had provided savings and loan services to over 335,000 people, including more than 230,000 women. As of April 30, 2007, the NSP numbered 16,700 community development councils throughout Afghanistan, 27,000 approved projects and 11,400 completed projects.

As you know, the greatest difficulties are experienced in Kandahar, in southern Afghanistan, especially because of the precarious security situation. For this reason, Canada has multiplied its reconstruction assistance to Kandahar by almost eight times since 2005-2006; our aid has increased to $39 million in 2006-2007. Of this amount, we have invested over $20 million to meet people's basic needs.

Another of our priorities is to guide Afghanistan's fledgling democracy to maturity. For democracy to be stronger, people must have confidence in it. For this to happen, a democracy must be able to meet its citizens' basic needs. People are fully entitled to this human right.

As you can see, Messrs. Chairmen, all of our areas of intervention are closely interrelated. We must balance all these dimensions, so that the democratically-elected government can become stronger and people can have faith in it. A delicate balance exists in Afghanistan, and we must thus be perseverant.

Among our efforts, we support initiatives to strengthen human rights—especially the rights of the most vulnerable, such as women and girls.

Messrs. Chairmen, I would like to remind you here of the tragic events of this week, in which two women journalists from Afghanistan were killed. These tragic events strengthen our determination to promote a culture of human rights in Afghanistan, especially the right of women and girls.

On my first visit to Afghanistan, I met with Ms. Ghanzanfar, the Minister of Women's Affairs. She too is bravely doing her job. Let me remind you that in September 2006, the person responsible for women's affairs in Kandahar province was killed in front of her home after criticizing how the Taliban treated women. This must change.

Rights and Democracy, a Canadian organization, is working with decision-makers in the Government of Afghanistan, Parliament, and civil society to promote and protect women's rights, especially by proposing family law reforms.

We will also continue to strengthen the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. We want to provide more support for the commission's activities. It promotes human rights; it investigates human rights violations; it monitors and supervises the treatment of prisoners and inmates. The commission is a brand new institution that is establishing its influence on society. We are helping it to do so.

Mr. Sorenson, Mr. Casson, we still have many challenges to meet in Afghanistan, but we are on the right track. Our approach yields concrete results every day. I would like to remind you of a quote from Professor Barnett Rubin, Director of the Center on International Cooperation at the University of New York, a world-renowned specialist on Afghanistan.

He said that Canada is “one of the best donors in terms of the way it gives assistance”.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

We have three minutes left in the time allotted for opening statements.

Ms. Guergis, do you have a few comments to make?

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade)]

Yes, I do. I'll keep them brief.

Thanks very much, colleagues, for an opportunity to talk to you about some of the progress that I witnessed first-hand in Afghanistan. As we know, Canada is part of an evolving mission, and as they say, Rome was not built in a day. After 30 years of conflict, tyranny, and oppression, societal structures that we enjoy here in Canada are still in the very early stages of development.

That said, the strides made in Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban have been immense. Things that we take for granted in Canada, such as a school system, or health care system, or even a banking system, are things that were virtually non-existent under the Taliban.

One of the most striking meetings I had, which clearly demonstrated to me the evolution of institution building, was at the headquarters of our micro-finance facility. I met with Afghanistan's minister of women's affairs, who arranged for me to meet with a number of women who are beneficiaries of our micro-finance programs. As you know, Canada is the lead donor of this amazingly successful program. Hundreds of thousands of Afghans have been granted small loans to start small businesses or make other investments in their future. They take great pride in owning their own business and having some small control over their own future.

Canada's micro-finance programs are building a lasting legacy of entrepreneurship that sows the seed of individual independence. In another meeting I had with teachers and children at the Aschiana School, I saw the school was teaching children the trades, fine art, history, and Afghan culture. More importantly, girls were going to school, and I presented a girl's gym class with a personal gift of soccer balls.

Canada not only supports education and training, but also meals and medical attention, which is literally turning their lives around.The presence of Canada and our international allies is giving these children and their families a future they otherwise would not have had.

Mr. Chair, beyond the hundreds of millions of dollars that Canada is spending on reconstruction, development, and poverty reduction in Afghanistan, perhaps the most important thing we are doing is making sure that the solutions created withstand the test of time. Institution building is central to this, because these improvements have to be guided by and owned by the Afghan people, both nationally and locally, and they are. We must never forget that we are in Afghanistan at the request of the Afghan government and we must remember that it is not our place to command the pace or the way of Afghan development.

For example, under the national solidarity program, local village councils spend development funds and oversee the projects in their communities. This way of operating is important, because it respects Afghan choices and underlines the fact that the international community is there to help Afghans help themselves, and not to impose someone else's plans.

Let me say in closing that what I experienced there and what I saw gave me greater hope for the future, and I look forward to sharing some of the incredible stories that some incredibly brave women shared with me.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much.

Thank you all. That's exactly on time. We've left the maximum amount of time we can for questions.

Mr. Sorenson.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll go to the first round. The first round goes to the official opposition. Mr. Dosanjh and Mr. Coderre will do a split on time. You have ten minutes.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

With all of the actions or omissions of the government in the last few months, it is only natural that one begins to suspect what the government is doing: you have the case of the Afghanistan 2006 report, which was claimed not to exist and then was released heavily edited; you have the access to information committee having difficulty studying that particular report and that issue; then, there's invoking national security for simple information, such as when a bureaucrat read a report; and then first announcing a new detainee transfer deal in Federal Court to shut down a lawsuit, rather than briefing the House of Commons on it beforehand.

In view of all of that, I have a couple of questions. First, the Department of Defence has indicated to the foreign affairs committee, in response to a request for a minimal amount of information concerning detainees who have been held by Canadian Forces and may have been transferred in Afghanistan, that the information would not be provided on the grounds of operational security.

The question is this: can you clearly articulate how providing this information would in any way jeopardize our operational security? I'd like some concrete examples from Minister O'Connor.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Dosanjh.

Minister O'Connor.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

I can confirm, Mr. Chair, that for operational reasons we do not provide information on how many persons have been detained or transferred by the Canadian Forces, or any other details. The public release of information on the number of detainees held, transferred, or released by the Canadian Forces and any related details would be detrimental to our military operations. For instance, the enemy could exploit the information for propaganda purposes and towards other operational objectives. The enemy could use the information for planning, surveillance, and other operational purposes.

I must point out that operational security is a military decision, not a political one. This is a military decision. We are conducting military operations at this time. The military have declared this to be operational security.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Minister O'Connor, I don't buy that. This is an important issue for the country.

The Pentagon, of all people, has lists of people they are holding in Guantanamo Bay. Here is the list: you can get it off their website.

Obviously the United States of America does not believe releasing the names of detainees or the number of detainees is a matter of operational security for their forces, who are also in Afghanistan. Why is it that we alone--Canadians, the Government of Canada--believe you have to be that secretive?