National Defence Committee on June 6th, 2007

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you, Chairman.

I don't know that it was so much a question to me as a commentary. I appreciate the commentary. It's exactly the type of response I've been trying to elicit for months from opposition members instead of having them, in their questioning, casting a negative pall over the actions of our soldiers. In fact, we have heard today again from the Liberal member, Mr. Coderre, that there's some kind of game going on—with sort of a wink, wink, nudge, nudge—with our soldiers and theirs. So that type of veiled accusation continues.

We have no difficulty in any way, shape, or form being questioned about government actions. I'm talking about the actions of soldiers who have been noted, even by Afghan forces and those who've been apprehended by Canadians, in their reflections on the actions of our soldiers, to have been nothing but exemplary.

It has been unfortunate. I said that I'm not saying it is intentional, but it has been unfortunate that our soldiers feel an accusatory tone towards their actions. There's nothing wrong with questioning government actions, but our soldiers have been honourable in this whole process.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll go to Minister O'Connor and whoever else may want to answer.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

Yes, to my knowledge, our forces have recorded every detainee they've taken since the beginning of the Afghan mission. We also have medical records for them, and so on. But the Canadian Forces do not have any responsibility, as such, to monitor what happens to detainees in the Afghan system.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Perhaps I can pick up on that point, Mr. Chair and colleagues. That is exactly what this enhanced arrangement is very much aimed at achieving. Clearly this arrangement that was placed in effect a few months ago is still morphing into an effective system of monitoring.

There were shortcomings in the previous arrangement that we know were highlighted by some of these complaints by detainees. What we have now is a greater system of reporting. I would suggest we have a higher standard when it comes to the obligations placed upon the Afghans themselves. We have greater unfettered and private access available to Canadian officials, diplomats, and personnel from Corrections Canada. That also extends to the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission. It is also meant to enhance access from the International Commission of the Red Cross.

So this enhanced arrangement, Mr. Chair, as it has been referred to by many, including noted journalists and others who have closely followed this issue, is now the standard. In fact other countries are looking to this example as a way to improve their own monitoring.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Minister MacKay.

You still have some time, either Ms. McDonough or Ms. Black.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

The question is, where are the detainees now? Do we know where they are? Monitoring, Mr. Minister, is supposed to be part of what's taking place here.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

As I said, Mr. Chair, this is exactly what's happening. We now have a much greater ability to track the detainees to ensure the standards that are expected are being met. The Afghans themselves, of course, clearly understand the expectations when it comes to detainees who were turned over by Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. They will not only ensure that we know about their whereabouts, but their treatment will conform with international standards—the standards we have clearly set out.

Our ambassador in Afghanistan, Arif Lalani, now meets regularly with Afghan officials, including the head of the security, with whom he has met very recently, to continue to underscore our expectations.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, if I could, we wouldn't want the record to show that once again five ministers remained dumb as an oyster in the face of Malalai Joya's plight, so I wonder if I could ask for a response around the status of Malalai Joya and whether it is still the government's position that they have no comment on this grotesque, undemocratic, arbitrary suspension for having criticized the corruption and the ineffectiveness of parliament?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Some oysters have pearls, Mr. Chair. I'll allow my pearl to the left to respond to that question.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, Oh!

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Minister Verner.

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate being given the opportunity to remind all of my colleagues of the degree of commitment of the Canadian government and my department to women and to girls.

Within our world of communications, news travels fast and we have perhaps forgotten what the Taliban regime meant for women. This is perhaps a good opportunity to remind everyone. This regime is certainly one of the most atrocious the planet has ever seen. Women were not allowed to work nor to walk alone in the street, and when they went out they had to be accompanied by a close family member, of the male sex. They were denied access to the public baths and to education, and this also applied to little girls.

I think we should remember the arbitrary executions that took place in public arenas, before tens of thousands of men and teenagers, for minor offences.

One story I was...

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I twice asked a very specific question about Malalai Joya and the government's position. I've heard nothing but filibustering, with all kinds of vague references that this committee does not need to have a lecture on.

I'm asking if any of these five ministers cares enough or knows enough to speak about the status of Malalai Joya, or have you never even raised it to this date with the Afghan government?

And no, I won't stay home and stick to my knitting.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

I didn't hear that comment.

Unfortunately the time has expired for that round of questioning. We're moving over now to the government side, to Mr. Obhrai. To start off, you have 10 minutes.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be sharing my time with my colleague Russ Hiebert.

I would like to thank all the ministers for coming out here today. It's their strong commitment to ensure that Canadians are aware of what is happening in Afghanistan.

Canada's participation in Afghanistan involves our military, diplomats, CIDA employees, correctional officers, and members of the RCMP, as all of you have indicated. However, there is still the perception out there in the public that progress has not been achieved yet.

Can you outline how Canadian leadership—and you have given a brief outline—is being exercised in Afghanistan and, most importantly, outline our successes and challenges?

Thank you.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Go ahead.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

On the development side I'm going to allow my colleague from the International Development Agency to speak to the specifics of your question about the tangible proof we've seen—specific references to the Afghanistan Compact, which sets out benchmarks that are to be achieved in areas of development itself, in reconstruction and programming.

On the diplomacy side, we know that we have a very high level of engagement in Kabul between our ambassador, Arif Lalani, and his counterparts and officials inside the Afghanistan government. All of this, of course, happens very much under the umbrella of security, and all of this happens in the capacity building that we are seeing with the police and the Afghan National Army, including the prison officials, of course. We now have a much better grasp of the expectations that must be met and of how we intend to do the necessary follow-up. We are constantly monitoring this situation. We are following up.

I'll come back to an earlier question with respect to the whereabouts of Afghan detainees.This takes time. Let's be very frank. This is a mission now that goes back a period of time. The Afghan authorities have given us assurances that they will give us the location of Canadian detainees to the best of their abilities. But look, many people in Afghanistan do not have street addresses; they don't have birth certificates. There are many who bear the same name. These are conditions that actually exist, Mr. Chair. This is the reality we're dealing with in Afghanistan. It's not an easy task to track individuals, particularly those whose stated purpose is to avoid detection.

These detainees have spent a great deal of their lives living incognito. They have made it their life's work to avoid detention and capture, so they're not exactly expected, in many cases, to be cooperative when providing information—and let's not forget what's in the al-Qaeda handbook: you are to immediately make allegations of abuse and torture upon being captured by coalition forces.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Go ahead.

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Yes, we have indeed seen progress in Afghanistan, particularly in Kandahar. Why? Because as security has improved, we have been able to make progress at the same rate.

As an example, we spent $5 million in Kandahar last year. This year, we were able to multiply that amount by eight. That allowed more than 500 community development councils to complete approximately 500 projects, the list of which is obviously available on our website. These are irrigation, training, health and children's vaccination projects, and an obstetrical and neo-natal care centre that is part of the Mir Wais Hospital. This centre can serve almost 1,000 women per year and offers them a safer and healthier environment where they can give birth to their children. They were also given the measles vaccine.

Yes, significant progress has been made. The more security allows us, the more we are able to offer concrete results to the population of Kandahar.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Very good. Thank you very much.

Mr. Hiebert is next.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have two questions, one for Minister Verner, and one for Minister Guergis.

For Minister Verner, the reconstruction and development of Afghanistan is a complex task, and critical to that task is capacity building. Capacity building: I'm talking about teaching Afghan authorities how to better manage their own affairs. That means teaching everything from how to manage prisons, to how to properly deal with detainees, to developing a bureaucracy to build and maintain a sewer system, highways, basic infrastructure that's all so critical to the future of Afghanistan. I'm wondering if you could expand for the committee on the concept of capacity building, and the progress that's being made. As well, perhaps you could explain to the committee what Canada's contribution has been to capacity building in Afghanistan.

My second question is to Ms. Guergis.

Minister, some here in Canada, particularly the NDP, are calling for a complete pullout of our forces from Afghanistan in one breath, and yet they claim to stand for women's rights and children's rights in the next breath. You had an opportunity to meet with a leading women's rights advocate in Kandahar recently on your visit. I'm wondering if you could expand a little bit for the committee on what Canada's presence means to the rights of women and children in Afghanistan, and perhaps you could dispel this myth that's being perpetuated by the NDP.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Go ahead you have three minutes

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you for that question, colleague.

Reconstruction and development in Afghanistan does indeed pose a challenge. This country has known decades of war and conflict, but for the first time, it has a democratically-elected government.

Canada, like many other donors, expects to help the Afghan government to take matters in hand. We have a multitude of programs. For example, when the time came to draft the Afghan constitution, CIDA worked together with people from Rights and Democracy from Montreal. These people worked together with some 60 Afghan female NGOs in order to ensure that the rights of women would be included in the constitution. In order to do so, a lot of research was done. These people helped the women table their briefs and ensure that they were well prepared for their presentations.

This is a giant step for the women of this country. They had lost all their rights; they had none left. It is only one example, but it is a very important one. It is by continuing to educate the Afghan population that we will achieve great progress in terms of human rights, particularly for women.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

There's a minute and a half left.

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thanks very much. First, I agree with you, it is very hypocritical in my opinion for the NDP to sit here, particularly today, and launch some personal attacks on us with respect to our not giving her a comment at her demand with respect to Madam Joya. Of course we are monitoring this situation very closely because what's going on has some impact on women's rights at some point. But it is their Parliament. As I said early in my remarks, it is for the Afghan government and the Afghan people to make decisions about how their lives will go forward, and we're there to assist them in their decisions.

I want to talk about Rona Tareen specifically, whom I met in Kandahar City, and the stories she told me about what it was like under the Taliban before the international community was there: how her little girl could not go to school, how women could not own a business, how there were women whose bones would break during childbirth because they were not permitted to go outside to have sunlight so they could get the vitamin D they need. This is not something that they were able to have. What she clearly said to me with tears in her eyes was how much she appreciates Canada's presence there, because now her little girl is able to go to school. She gives clear credit to Canada and to Canadians. She knows the Taliban is working; they are being successful in breaking the resolve of the opposition parties in Canada. She clearly knows this, and her message to us, and the message she asked me to take back here, was to tell Canadians, please do not leave, do not go, and do not turn your back on us now, because all will be lost. We cannot fool ourselves; there would be mass murder.