National Defence Committee on Nov. 29th, 2007

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of National Defence]

With me is someone who is probably not very well known to you: the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Rick Hillier; and also with me is the Deputy Minister of National Defence, Rob Fonberg.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Very good. We are glad to have you here, Mr. Minister.

As you know, we requested you on two different subjects. This is the first, the estimates, and we want to see you back on procurement. Hopefully that will happen soon.

It is set up to give you time to do your presentation. Then, depending on the time, the opening round is 10 minutes for each party, so that's a 40-minute window. Hopefully we will have at least that to question you.

Sir, the floor is yours.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will try to be succinct in my presentation and answers out of respect for committee members.

I want to begin by thanking you as committee members for the work you do on behalf of Canadians with respect to the committee on national defence.

It's a pleasure for me to be here today to discuss with you the Department of National Defence supplementary estimates for the fiscal year 2007-08, which, as you would expect, has been a very busy year, an active year.

As the members of this committee are certainly aware, the supplementary estimates provide a more detailed picture of the government's spending and are reflective of the priorities of the Department of National Defence. This year's estimates are particularly important as the funding requests are part of the government's plan to strengthen our sovereignty and international influence by investing necessary resources in our military personnel and equipment. As you would expect, the mission in Afghanistan figures very prominently in both.

This government's priority with the Canadian Forces is rebuilding them into a first-class modern military.

A military that can serve Canadians, a military that can protect Canadian interests and values, because the world remains an unpredictable place, and we must be prepared to meet the unexpected.

We're facing a number of complex defence and security challenges today, including: failed and failing states, international terrorism, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, and a host of regional conflicts and tensions.

To meet these challenges, Mr. Chairman, we need a multi-role, combat capable military. And that is exactly what the government is building with the Canada First Defence Strategy. In Budget 2006, the government committed $5.3 billion over five years. This level of funding demonstrates the government's resolve to meet the defence challenges facing our nation. These funds are building a first class military. We're accelerating recruitment, we're providing modern equipment, and we're positioning ourselves for operational success. Budget 2007 reaffirmed the government's commitment to rebuilding defence, and accelerated the distribution of funds allocated in the previous budget.

Mr. Chair, the throne speech identified the strengthening of the ability of National Defence to protect Canada's own interests and North America's, as well as to exert international influence through key missions. At home, asserting Canada's Arctic sovereignty is a priority mission. We need to enhance the ability of the Canadian Forces to operate in the far north and establish a greater presence there.

There are several reasons for doing this. Reduced Arctic ice levels could eventually make the Northwest Passage a commercial shipping route, and we must prepare for this possibility. There is also the increased economic activity in our northern land, air, and space. This includes mining, fishing, oil and gas exploration, cruise ship traffic, tourism, and international aviation, among other things, and we need to enforce our laws there and protect our citizens, our territory, and the environment, and of course, fulfill responsibilities to conduct search and rescue operations for those in distress.

I might just add a word of respect, if I could, for the work that's done by our search and rescue. They are truly unsung heroes within the Canadian military, and the training, the professionalism, and expertise that go into some of these search and rescue operations, particularly in those harsh climates in the Arctic, is nothing short of heroic and exemplary.

Extending the government's reach into our vast Arctic territories, as you would expect, can be challenging, and for this reason the Canadian Forces are regularly called upon to carry out their own missions and to support other departments to fulfill their mandates. We work very closely with Public Safety, Indian and Northern Affairs, DFAIT, and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, to name a few.

To assert our sovereignty in the Arctic we need a military that can conduct surveillance and control over the north. We need a military that can operate effectively in some of the harshest climates and terrains in the world.

The Speech from the Throne also identified Afghanistan as a top priority, and we join with like-minded nations that stand for freedom, democracy, and respect for human rights and the rule of law. The United Nations-mandated, NATO-backed NATO mission was launched because Afghanistan was being used by international terrorists as a base to plan and prepare the 9/11 attacks on North America. The world responded after the democratically elected government of Afghanistan asked the international community for help. Canada and 36 other troop-contributing nations then answered the call. We have roughly 2,500 Canadian Forces personnel in Afghanistan, most of those in the southern province of Kandahar.

The mission is part of an integrated whole-of-government effort in helping the Afghan government establish its authority over and across the country. That includes securing their own sovereign borders. As signatories of the Afghanistan Compact with 60 other countries, we know that the benchmarks of development that are set out are goals that we seek to attain by 2011. Guided by this compact, the international community is providing the Afghan government with assistance in governance, development, reconstruction, and security. Of those, security is the essential precondition for Afghanistan's democratically elected economic and social development to go forward, and without a secure environment there, these critical efforts will be in vain.

The Canadian Forces is doing its share in this international outreach by helping the Afghan army and police build their capacity to establish security in Kandahar. These operational liaison mentoring teams now include a similar type of working relationship with police, for which Canada is also playing an important role through the department of public security.

Mr. Chair, we're increasing our efforts to train Afghan national security forces so they can take responsibility for defending their country's sovereignty and democratic institutions. This is very much in keeping with the throne speech and the recognition of the importance of Afghans taking responsibility for their own national security.

Having been to Afghanistan recently, and having been there three times as a cabinet minister, I've witnessed first-hand some of the positive and tangible signs of incremental progress on the ground in Afghanistan. Each visit has confirmed for me that progress is being made, step by step, in reconstruction and governance, and of course, the all-important provision of security that is required and necessary to allow for this progress to continue. The visits have also confirmed for me that the members of the Canadian armed forces are focused, motivated, and very proud of the role they continue to play in this international effort to help Afghanistan.

In addition, we as Canadians are very proud of the members of the Canadian Forces who do their jobs every day on our behalf. We are witnessing public displays of gratitude and appreciation across the country for our men and women in uniform. I expect that all members of this committee, in attending Remembrance Day services, would have seen a sharp increase in attendance and public displays of affection for our military, both past and present.

I also remind you, as I'm sure you're very aware, that we now have veterans in this country who are 20 years old.

Mr. Chairman, whether our troops are operating in the Arctic, Afghanistan or another theatre, they face incredible challenges every single day. Even when they aren't in the headlines, members of the Canadian Forces are actively engaged in domestic and international operations on land, in the air and at sea.

Just last week, the Canadian Navy had just over 3,000 sailors at sea conducting exercises off our coast and participating in international missions.

The Air Force is no less busy. Without their efforts, we simply couldn't sustain Joint Task Force Afghanistan.

I'm sure we can all agree that our men and women in uniform conduct their missions with determination, resolve and incredible courage.

Mr. Chair, the supplementary estimates we're looking at today demonstrate the government's continued commitment to providing the Canadian Forces with the necessary tools to do their ever-important job. It builds on the many initiatives we've already put in place for our military over the course of the last 20 months.

I'll briefly describe the key items included in the supplementary estimates.

The government is providing National Defence with $875 million to strengthen the Canadian Forces' independent capacity to conduct its missions. Among other things, this includes money for expanding the number of personnel in the force and for sustaining infrastructure and equipment.

In addition, the estimates include some $340 million to support ongoing operations in Afghanistan. The money will enable Canada to play a strong leadership role in Afghanistan. As well, in February 2008, we once again will be taking command of NATO's Regional Command South. An initial $130 million is provided through supplementary estimates for the program to acquire up to 100 main battle tanks.

National Defence will also receive approximately $162 million to accelerate the delivery of the following approved major capital equipment projects: strategic and tactical airlift, main battle tanks, and precision artillery.

The estimates include $14 million for the Arctic patrol vessels program and associated infrastructure and the Halifax-class modernization frigate life extension project, which is allocated some $50 million. These ships, as you would know, Mr. Chair, are the workhorses of the Canadian navy, at home and abroad. We currently have ships deployed: the HMCS Toronto and the HMCS Charlottetown. Modernizing them will very much strengthen our sovereignty, our international influence, and our capacity to be where we're needed when we're needed.

Defending Canada and contributing to international stability clearly begins with recruitment. Without people, ships don't sail, armies don't march, and planes don't fly. As such, the estimates allocate $10 million to the Canadian Forces' recruitment campaign.

Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to report that those recruitment efforts are going very well, and we are seeing young people, in particular, taking an increased interest in the Canadian Forces as a career.

I'll conclude, Mr. Chair, by saying that the Canadian Forces, certainly in my estimation and in that of many, are doing a tremendous job representing our country and our citizens. Our men and women in uniform are operating at home and abroad defending our sovereignty and protecting our interests and values. They stand ready to conduct operations in some of the most challenging environments, whether it's in Canada's High Arctic or in the dusty mountains of Afghanistan. They make great sacrifices. They spend a tremendous amount of time away from their families, their loved ones, and they put their lives on the line for Canadians every single day when they're in a theatre of operations. They are our best citizens, and they are the best soldiers in the world. The Government of Canada is absolutely committed to giving them the tools they need to fulfill their missions and to protect their lives. The funding allocations in the supplementary estimates stand as a testament to this fact.

I'll be happy now to take any questions the committee may have on these estimates.

Again, Mr. Chair, through you, I'd like to relay to members of this committee appreciation for the important work you do in the exercise of reviewing these supplementary estimates on behalf of the Department of National Defence.

Thank you, merci.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

We'll get right into our round. It appears that we have exactly enough time for one 10-minute round.

Please go ahead, Mr. Coderre.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, just before we do, I also have with me today Admiral Denis Rouleau, who is the chief of programs, to answer any questions you might have on programs. Admiral Brian Weadon is also here. He is Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance and Corporate Services for DND.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you very much, Minister.

It's a pleasure to see you again, General Hillier and Mr. Fonberg. Congratulations on your new position; we'll be calling you often.

Today it's about estimates, so we're talking about spending and saving. There are two issues I'd like to talk about. I want to talk about the Auroras. As well, you've rightly said that we have to be respectful of our veterans, so I would like to talk about our veterans.

Of course we only have 10 minutes. I'll try to save some time for my friend Mr. Savage, because he has some very important questions to ask too, so I will have short questions and I'm expecting short answers.

First, in November the air force cancelled Aurora surveillance flights in the north for several months because of long-term maintenance issues in the aircraft fleet. We know that you decided to take a final decision just before Christmas to eventually cancel the Aurora program. We had already spent $955 million to modernize the Auroras. That was not only a great program; it would have been a good way to save taxpayers' money, and at the same time the Auroras would have been able to fly until 2025.

The decision that you take on December 18 will cost the Canadian base in Greenwood approximately 1,000 jobs. For the aerospace industry in Nova Scotia and the Maritimes, for Canadians, it would be a loss of more than 2,000 jobs. Now we're talking about 3,000 jobs.

I want to tell you, Mr. Minister, that the Liberals are totally against that. We believe the Aurora program is great not only for the sake of search and rescue, which you supposedly have respect for, but at the same time because of the Arctic, which I think is important.

I would like to hear from you. I asked the Auditor General to take a look at that. I asked her to make a formal inquiry into it. Would you confirm to us that you have already taken the decision that you will cancel the Aurora program? Why do you want to cancel it? It takes only $600 million to $800 million, instead of buying new planes that won't be ready until after 2016.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, there is so much in those questions that is completely factually incorrect that I'm not sure where to begin.

The Auroras were purchased back in the 1980s. We are looking at an aircraft that is very versatile and continues to provide invaluable surveillance. I should also note that the comments about reduction in surveillance are simply not true. They continue to conduct long-term sovereignty patrols over the Arctic and over our maritime approaches. They do fly out of Greenwood, and we have every intention, Mr. Chair, of maintaining the surveillance capabilities, both in the short term and in the long term, for the protection of both our coastal sovereignty and our Arctic sovereignty.

That having been said, we're looking at options to ensure that they're going to remain effective and continue to provide that surveillance safely and effectively. We do not want to find ourselves in the position that the previous government did, when we were flying Sea King aircraft that were over 30 years old; we are looking at a number of options, which of course include looking at the eventual purchase of a replacement aircraft that would provide that same type of capability.

With respect to Greenwood, we've just invested, incidentally, about $74 million to upgrade that airfield, including a new approach tower, a new fire station, and new infrastructure on the base. It has been a long time coming.

With respect to the Auroras and their operations at Greenwood and at Comox, British Columbia, they will certainly be there and conducting maritime surface and subsurface surveillance for the foreseeable future.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

We intend, of course, with respect to the aerospace contract, to look at what is feasible, to look at what is the right thing to do. I will rely heavily on the advice of the Chief of the Air Staff and individuals within the department who have years of experience, and we will be making a decision very soon. No decision has been taken.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Minister, maybe you should take a look at the point of view of Colonel Ed Fairbairn, a defence analyst, who is saying that “the unintended consequence of the good intention to replace the Aurora is almost certain to result in a very limited capability for Arctic and Maritime surveillance in the near term and no long range aircraft capable of ASW for many years.”

I have another question. General Hillier, I want to talk about Operation Plumbbob. It is a total disgrace that we have veterans from 1957--and now they created the Canadian Atomic Veterans' Association--who have been suffering. They don't have any news, they don't have anything. Would you confirm to me by a yes or no that you, along with former defence minister O'Connor, on February 27 met those representatives, including Sergeant Jim Huntley?

[Gen R.J. Hillier, Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Coderre, I met with representatives from that group. I don't remember the name, but I think there were five or six of them who met with Mr. O'Connor and me, yes.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I remember the name because I spoke with this individual recently. It's a Mr.--

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

That was for General Hillier, thank you.

You said to them--

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I had a conversation directly about the atomic veterans.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Just one at a time.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

That's it. I asked a question, I had an answer. Thank you.

I know that Minister MacKay spoke to them afterwards. It has been nine months that they are waiting. You spoke about Chalk River, but it was the case of Operation Plumbbob where they had some atomic experience and they were in the trenches or very near, and after that all they had to do was walk after those bombs.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

We'll have an announcement very soon with respect to it.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I want to know today if, first of all, you will be able to table to the committee every document, because it seems that since October everybody is outraged, and I am one of them. That is also what General Hillier said to them, and that was true, but it seems that they cannot get any documents.

I would like to make sure, Mr. Chair, that we table all documents regarding Operation Plumbbob. I want to make sure also that we have the medical records of those individuals.

I would like to know, and then I will pass the puck to my friend Savage, do you have an intention before Christmas of apologizing on behalf of Canada and to give them some alimony? The Americans already did it in 1991. They gave them $75,000 as compensation.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, we do have every intention of proceeding with an announcement very soon with respect to atomic veterans. This will be very much in keeping with our government's very proud record of dealing with some of these outstanding issues, like compensation for agent orange, a victims' ombudsman, a veterans' bill of rights.

I have had the opportunity to review the file since taking this position just over three months ago, and I'm very proud to say we met with the veterans affairs minister yesterday on this very issue. We hope to be making an announcement very soon that we think is in keeping with the generosity and the respect that this government holds for Canada's veterans, including those atomic veterans who performed exemplary service in putting themselves in that position to be exposed to atomic radiation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

You have two minutes left, Mr. Savage.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, General, and Mr. Fonberg, I want to follow up a letter that was sent I think to the minister and to General Hillier recently from a constituent of mine. She copied me. I spoke to her yesterday.

Her husband is on HMCS Toronto, which is returning after a five-month deployment. She, with other families, received recently this announcement, indicating that the return to Halifax has been delayed by two days, until 1300 hours on Tuesday, December 18. The reason cited, among the reasons, was that “the ever-increasing cost of fuel requires us to travel at our most economical speed on the trip home”. She is very disappointed by that.

Minister, you and I and Mr. Cuzner are from Nova Scotia. This is a military community. I am proud to represent the people who serve in the CF and veterans. It may not seem like a big deal to some people, a two-day delay, but I'm sure you would agree that a two-day delay after being away for almost half a year, particularly around Christmas, is very important. The Sunday planned return date is easier for families as well in terms of children not being in school, getting time off from jobs, and things like that.

My question to you is, will you review that decision to see if the original schedule can be followed and make Christmas a little bit brighter for these families, who support our brave men and women in the forces?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, I already have, although I must say that I heard about this through the media, as is often the case, rather than receiving your letter, because you sent the letter to the media first. So I have yet to actually receive your letter, Mr. Savage, and I'm surprised, quite frankly--

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Did you receive the letter?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Perhaps I can just answer.

I'm surprised, quite frankly, that you would go to such lengths to alarm and disappoint families when in fact, if I read the e-mail to which you're referring, it clearly states that the reason for the delay is high seas and safety. In fact, it's a--