National Defence Committee on April 1st, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Mr. Paillé.

Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

General Duval, I want to ask you some brief questions in order to properly clarify the matter. What we're doing today is important. I love your candour. I must tell you that you are quite an exceptional witness. I want to thank you. It's very refreshing, rather like a breath of fresh air.

Let's talk about flight times. You said that at 5:22 p.m., the aircraft entered into the CADIZ. Clearly, the planes did not leave from a base, they were already on patrol. Is that correct?

[MGen M. Duval]

Our planes?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Our planes were already in flight, is that not correct?

[MGen M. Duval]

The detection had already taken place.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

When did this detection occur?

[MGen M. Duval]

I wouldn't be able to tell you.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

The outer edge of the CADIZ follows the 72^nd parallel. So, we are entirely within sovereign territory. I imagine this as the top of the pyramid. Am I to understand that the aircraft did not enter into the CADIZ at the top, but rather from the side, hence the explanation?

[MGen M. Duval]

Yes. The territory located above the CADIZ is recognized as being Canadian territory.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

In other words, if the aircraft entered from the north, they would have ended up in Canadian territory, but they were in extra-territorial waters.

[MGen M. Duval]

Exactly.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Very good.

Under the START treaty that has been in effect since 1991, you were able to send the message: "CLOSE TO TERRITORY". In this particular incident, the message was: "CLOSE TO TERRITORY", immediately following which, there was a response. In the 11 incidents that occurred over the past year, or even in the 30 some interventions over the past two years, have you ever had to repeat several times: "CLOSE TO TERRITORY"?

[MGen M. Duval]

I am not able to answer that. I could look into that.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Could you verify that information, please?

[MGen M. Duval]

I am not familiar with those details, but I will check.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

With regard to submarines, I understand that you have a MOU. You are currently organizing something in the naval and maritime fields. Perhaps this is a little more than empty promises, but nothing has really been done with regard to submarine detection.

If a submarine were to navigate along our coastlines, it would be strictly the Canadian government that would resolve such issues, correct?

[MGen M. Duval]

In territorial waters? Absolutely.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

And outside? If I understand correctly, we do not have the preventive measures that NORAD could provide us, because you are not prepared. Is this what I am to understand with regard to submarines?

[MGen M. Duval]

Are you alluding to the CADIZ equivalent for submarines?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Yes. You just said that an agreement was about to be reached.

[MGen M. Duval]

NORAD has been given the mandate to ensure maritime surveillance. Currently, the process to define exactly how that mandate will be executed is underway.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Chair in conclusion then, in light of statements by the Prime Minister—

I'll say it in English to make sure that our friends listen to it in the back. The reason the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence did that was purely as a diversion. I understand, with the NORAD point of view, that there was no threat there. I'm very disappointed that the government tried to put oil on the fire regarding the relationship between Russia and Canada.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

We will now move on to our final questioner, Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry, I can't let that go by. That statement by Mr. Coderre was absolute rubbish. As General Duval has said, these flights happen all the time. They're training exercises for the Russians. The reaction is training exercises for us. They're valuable in that respect. There's no requirement for them to notify. It would be nice if they did. All that was made clear.

There's a lot of misunderstanding on the other side about the difference between START—which has absolutely nothing to do with these missions, nothing to do with the close-to-territory radio procedures that are carried out; this is apples and oranges.... I suggest there's a lot of confusion in the committee about some of those things.

Mr. Chair, I think what would be helpful is to bring a map to the committee next time, just for the people to see visually where the CADIZ and so on are. That would be helpful, because there's been a bit of confusion on it.

I'll ask General Duval a final question, and it goes back to what I just said. If we have foreign military aircraft, Russia's or anybody else's, operating towards our airspace, or towards our airspace of interest in the CADIZ, do you consider it prudent and necessary to be able to detect them and intercept them and make sure they know that we know they're there and that we can be on scene to do whatever it is we need to do?

[MGen M. Duval]

Absolutely I do, because we cannot afford.... Our mission is very clear. It's to defend against any threatening air vehicles approaching our coastlines and our sovereign airspace. With that mission in mind, we cannot speculate; we have to go out and verify. Once we have verified that there is no threat, we have accomplished what we needed to do.