National Defence Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[Vadm Bruce Donaldson]

Sir, there's a full range of measures that will be in place, including CF-18s that will be there and patrolling. We've seen them and a number of others practising. Obviously there is a scalable response that is attuned to the threat level we expect, but I think it would be inappropriate and probably premature for me to declare categorically whether ADATS would be part of that layered defence arrangement.

In terms of NORAD in Colorado Springs, sir, NORAD is a binational command, as I say. It is headquartered in Colorado Springs, but the Canadian NORAD region is based in Canada. The air component commander will be fully connected with the games commander, with the RCMP, and will be able to manage that theatre as any other. So I wouldn't characterize that as being the United States looking after security at all. Canadians are looking after security for the games.

You asked about CBRNE.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Mr. Donaldson, the time is up for Mr. Bachand, but if you could give all these answers in writing to the committee, it would be appreciated.

Thank you very much.

Now I will give the floor to Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Perhaps you can have a chance to elaborate when I ask my question.

First of all, I was going to welcome you all and to say there is every reason to be impressed with the level of detail in the planning that's gone into this exercise. I had occasion many months ago to become aware of some of the detailed planning for the torch relay, and I am certainly impressed with the level of foresight and interest the RCMP has taken in that. So I think Canadians can be assured that a lot of work they are not aware of has happened, and hopefully others will be deterred in knowing that our officials have been so active.

I do have a question for Vice-Admiral Donaldson. One small sentence in your presentation refers to the United States, but I have an article from The Seattle Times of October 2, stating that “Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano is touring the new $4 million Olympics Coordination Center in Bellingham, Washington”, which the article refers to as “a key part of the U.S. law enforcement and counterterrorism efforts for the 2010 Winter Olympics in British Columbia”. It goes on to say that “About 25 to 30 agencies will have representatives at the center to plan for possible riots or terrorism, as well as floods or snowstorms”.

As a Canadian, it concerns me that we have an American operation in Bellingham, Washington—which of course is right on the border with Canada—where there are Americans planning for riots or terrorism. I guess terrorism is something everyone needs to be concerned about, but exactly what role does the centre play and what role will those 25 or 30 agencies—which I'm assuming are American—represented at this U.S. law enforcement and counter-terrorism center be playing in your security efforts? What are the arrangements with respect to that, or are there any? Or is this something that's not accurate at all?

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, the Bellingham centre is entirely an American operational centre, and it's responsible for any security issues south of the border. It obviously would have connections to our centres in Canada, but at the end of the day it is intended for American security issues, not Canadian ones.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

So you are suggesting they have no role inside our border, that this is purely internal to the United States and that these 25 or 30 agencies are concerned about riots in Bellingham, Washington, and not anywhere else associated with the games?

[Ward Elcock]

I'm not sure what their precise concerns are, or why they have built it the way they've built it, but these are entirely with respect to operations within the United States.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Vice-Admiral Donaldson, could you then elaborate on your sentence where you said:

It is no exaggeration to say that the progress we've achieved in the governance structure, planning amongst other government departments and with our U.S. partners, has been moving us all to a more considered and deliberate method of preparing for special security events

Is that just a comment on the learning process? I know there's coordination through NORAD, obviously, but is that the extent of it in regard to U.S. military or agency involvement, as referred to here?

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, before Admiral Donaldson responds, if you look at the location of the Olympics, in point of fact there has been American involvement by definition from the very beginning. Some of the air exclusion zones, for example, take in American airspace, so the FAA has been part of those from the beginning.

Similarly, NORAD is a binational command structure. We work with NORAD—and the admiral, I'm sure, will want to speak to that—to ensure that air security is provided. They are our partner for air security. Regarding the Canadian navy and the American navy, the U.S. offshore begins very quickly. As you probably know, our ferries from the terminal back right into U.S. waters as they head off to Victoria. As the U.S. border starts soon, the coast guard and the American navy have been part, in a sense, of our efforts or collaborating with us in ensuring security for the Olympics.

So by definition, we've been working with our partners for some considerable period of time and have continuing law enforcement and military relationships back and forth across the border. The border is very close. There are issues on which both sides have to work together.

[VAdm Bruce Donaldson]

Indeed, sir, on a daily basis we cooperate with U.S. forces to make sure that we have a shared awareness of our common security threats. We have a shared awareness of activities off our coasts, and we have a shared awareness of how our forces are posturing, so that we understand what is happening, particularly around the border when things are happening close to where we're doing business.

So I would characterize it as a very close and friendly partnership that fully respects national responsibilities for safety and security, that fully respects national sovereignty, and that makes best use of our resources to come up with a common understanding of what we are facing.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you. I appreciate that. And clearly, we all understand the nature of the border, on land and sea and in the air, and that all of that coordination takes place.

The implication from this article seemed to be that there was a role inside Canada for these U.S. agencies, and I'm encouraged to hear you suggest that's not the case and that it's basically a Canadian responsibility what happens inside Canada.

I have another question, perhaps more for clarification than anything. You referred, Vice-Admiral Donaldson, to the potential threats and you outlined some of them. One of them you called “criminal protests, and a hostage taking”. We understand there can be significant or serious criminal activities undertaken in the guise of a protest, but I do have concerns with that phraseology of yours, because as a lawyer, and as any lawyer would know, it's very easy to find within the Criminal Code methods of declaring a particular form of protest that most people might consider to be within the bounds of expression as criminal because it's in violation of parts of the Criminal Code dealing with unlawful assembly, causing a disturbance, or other parts of the code, which could turn these protests into criminal activities.

Could you tell us, Commissioner McDonell, what you would define as a criminal protest? Because I'm assuming it will be your people who will be defining that and determining whether such a thing is taking place.

[A/Commr Pat McDonell]

A criminal protest is as you said: it will be defined in the Criminal Code of Canada as causing a disturbance or damaging property. That would be an example of a criminal protest, and we have measures and resources in place to deal with a protest that gets out of hand.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I'm not happy with that response, but I know my time is up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Mr. Harris. Yes, your time is up.

I will give the floor to Mr. Braid.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, if Mr. Harris was quoting from a source, could he be so kind as to table that source with the committee, just so I can have that information?

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I'd be very happy to. Unfortunately, it's only in English.

[An hon. member]

That's too bad.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

We have translation services. It's up to you if you don't want to table your source.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I said I'd be happy to, Mr. Chairman, and I'd like the record corrected to indicate that. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Braid.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for being here this morning and for your very thorough presentations.

There's clearly a very impressive level of coordination that's going on among government departments and agencies, and after hearing the presentations this morning I have no doubt that our security mandate will be fulfilled with the high degree of professionalism we've come to know from our Canadian police forces and security and military personnel.

I would like to start with this question. I presume that you've done some consultation with organizers of previous games and that there are certain best practices that exist, that have been learned over time, and that we are going to incorporate into a successful Canadian Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games. Could you elaborate a little bit on what consultations with previous games organizers have been held and what some of these best practices you've incorporated are?

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, the IOC does encourage exchanges between previous Olympic games and current Olympic games, if you will, and future Olympic games. So those meetings do take place on a fairly regular basis, and I've certainly attended some. I'm sure the assistant commissioner has—and I know others have too.

We have learned some lessons from them. There are some things you can learn from other games. The reality is that each games are in some sense unique; they take place in very different places, sometimes with very different issues and very different problems. So sometimes the solutions of one games are not the solutions of the next set of games. We have learned some things, but the reality is that each one is a pretty unique situation, and in some cases you learn what not to do as much as what to do.

I don't know if you want to comment, Pat.

[A/Commr Pat McDonell]

That pretty well covers it.

I visited Beijing prior to the commencement of their games. There were a few things we learned from Beijing—but very few. The laws are different there. The make-up of the venues, the footprint of the games, was much different from what we have in Vancouver.

The subject-matter experts who work under me have visited other Olympic games and have brought home some best practices. But when they bring them home, they have to take these best practices and fit them into a Canadian policing model. So these are somewhat modified by the time we put them into operations here in Canada.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Very good.

In responses to some previous questions, you've touched on the type of cooperation and collaboration that we're having with the authorities in the United States. Could you extend that beyond the U.S. and speak to the cooperation and collaboration we're having with other international partners leading up to our games?

[Ward Elcock]

I'm not quite sure what you're thinking of in terms of “other international” cooperation. Most of that in fact is fostered through the IOC. They are, after all, the international body dealing with the games and have a lot of experience in how to manage an Olympic games and some of the issues that come up. They've actually been quite useful in some of the conversations we've had with them.

In terms of other international bodies, really, the focus is North American at this point. Apart from visiting some other Olympic sites and talking to those who have held other Olympics, there are not a whole lot of other parties to whom we've ventured in looking for best practices for the Olympics.