National Defence Committee on Dec. 7th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Bonjour à tous.

We're going to start our Standing Committee on National Defence, meeting number 38.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are going to continue our study on the next generation of fighter aircraft.

We have with us, from Eurofighter, Mr. Roman Kohler,

Vice-President of Political and Government Affairs, Aeronautics. Thank you, Mr. Kohler, and welcome.

We also have, from Alenia Aeronautica, Andrea Nappi, head of Eurofighter export, Alenia Aeronautica. Bienvenue. Enchanté.

We also have, from Cassidian Air Systems, Christian Worning,

Eurofighter project test pilot. Thank you for being with us.

I think it will be Mr. Nappi who will take the floor. You have ten minutes to make your presentation. After that, the members will ask questions of the witnesses.

Thank you for being with us this afternoon.

Mr. Nappi, you have the floor.

[Andrea Nappi, Head of Eurofighter Export, Alenia Aeronautica]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, good afternoon.

My name is Andrea Nappi, and I’m here today to represent the supervisory board of the Eurofighter GmbH consortium, whose headquarters are based in Munich, Germany.

The shareholders of the consortium are Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems, EADS Germany, and EADS Spain.

I’m joined today by my colleague Mr. Chris Worning of EADS Germany, who is one of our test pilots and who has flown many types of combat aircraft, and by Mr. Roman Kohler, who is Eurofighter's vice-president for government affairs.

I will begin by saying how grateful Eurofighter is for this opportunity to address the committee and to answer your questions about our Typhoon aircraft and about our interest in meeting the needs of the Canadian defence force. We have followed closely and with great interest the progress of the committee's current inquiry, not least so that we would be well prepared to provide you with the most helpful responses.

Although I recognize that the committee is generally familiar with these matters, I would briefly remind you that the Eurofighter so-called core nations are Germany, Italy, Spain, and the United Kingdom, and that these four countries have ordered 620 aircraft, of which 250 have been delivered to date. In addition, Austria has purchased and taken delivery of 15 aircraft, while Saudi Arabia has purchased 72 aircraft. There are now 16 operational Eurofighter Typhoon units operating in all climatic environments, including northern Europe, the Middle East, and the south Atlantic.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is currently a contender in competitive opportunities around the globe for a total of some 800 fast jet aircraft, and has performed outstandingly well in recent highly demanding evaluation trials. So this is a very real airplane, undertaking very real and demanding operational duties.

The Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, which first entered operational service in 2004, has flown some 100,000 hours and will form the backbone of the Eurofighter nations' forces for at least the next 30 years. Eurofighter Typhoon is a modern, highly capable, highly agile multi-role twin-engine fighter, with a proven level of maturity and extensive growth potential. Unlike other fighters, Eurofighter Typhoon's advanced design features allow a comprehensive air-to-surface capability to be provided with no compromise to air-to-air effectiveness. The four partner nations are committed to an ongoing cycle of capability sustainment to maintain the aircraft's fighting edge throughout its operational life.

The aircraft makes extensive use of composites in the airframe, with only 15% of the surface comprising metal. Its EJ200 engines, combined with the aircraft's aerodynamics, allow it to cruise supersonically without the use of reheat for extended periods of time, even with a weapons load. A fully integrated avionics system, coupled with a lightweight helmet-mounted display, help to minimize the pilot’s workload and maximize situational awareness, permitting fully effective single-seat operations in all weather conditions, day and night.

An integrated suite of advanced sensors provides for the detection, tracking, identification, and engagement of air and surface targets under even the most demanding conditions, and the aircraft is able to carry a wide range of weapons, mission-specific loads, and other stores.

The Eurofighter Typhoon has also been designed to be reliable and easy to maintain when operating from forward operating bases with limited facilities, and this gives extremely high levels of fleet availability and competitive life-cycle costs. You may not be surprised to hear, therefore, that we pay little attention to the fourth-generation versus fifth-generation debate that seems to have become fashionable. We prefer instead to focus on delivering a mix of capabilities that not only meets our customers' requirements but also optimizes their chances of surviving the battle. This mix includes, for example, our super-cruise capability, extreme agility, sustained supersonic and high-altitude operations, fighter performance with a full missile load, integrated sensor fusion, network-enabled operations, low observability, and an ability to change roles in flight.

It is also worth underlining at this point that the Eurofighter Typhoon was designed from the outset to be fully interoperable at all times and in all circumstances with NATO forces. It would be more than able, therefore, to undertake NORAD operations in concert with U.S. forces. I would also observe that its twin-engine design makes it particularly suited to operating safely in Arctic conditions.

Perhaps I could also point out that the Eurofighter Typhoon meets all three of the key capabilities highlighted by General Deschamps as essential for the next-generation fighter--interoperability, sensors and data fusion, and survivability.

The Canadian defence force was first briefed on the Eurofighter Typhoon in 2004 by BAE Systems. Further intermittent contact with BAE Systems took place until 2008, during which time visits were also made to the Royal Air Force Eurofighter Typhoon operational base. During this period we and the U.K. Ministry of Defence provided limited amounts of data on the aircraft, and I have provided the clerk of the committee with French and English-language versions of summary documents that we previously provided to the Canadian defence force.

As I said, we are continually developing and optimizing the aircraft, so I respectfully suggest that a current assessment of the aircraft would require far more up-to-date and comprehensive data than has been previously provided. We would, of course, be delighted to offer such data, which would also be of much higher classification than the earlier data. The bottom line is that we are wholly confident that our aircraft would readily meet the high-level mandatory capabilities for Canada's next-generation fighter.

Aside from its wish to secure a cost-effective, leading-edge capability, we have been especially aware of Canada's determination to maximize the benefit of any acquisition for Canadian industry. I would like to highlight, therefore, that as a multinational collaborative venture we are used to sharing intellectual property and transferring technology, not just among ourselves, but with our extensive supplier base and our export customers.

In addition, all four Eurofighter partner companies have outstanding track records in meeting industrial participation and offset obligations around the globe. Between us we have the ability to offer Canadian industry an unprecedented and unique level of access to key fighter technologies covering manufacturing, maintenance, repair and overhaul, capability development, and systems integration.

We can also offer opportunities and partnerships not just on the Typhoon aircraft, but on high-technology projects in every sector of the defence equipment arena, as well as in a wide variety of civil aerospace, communications, electronics, and space programs.

Eurofighter's shareholder companies have combined turnover in excess of 120 billion euros, and operate some 20 business units in more than 30 countries. The Eurofighter consortium is happy to work with Industry Canada and the regional benefit agencies to develop a bespoke, high-value industrial participation offering to Canada, meeting or exceeding the dollar-for-dollar requirement.

On the vital issue of sovereign control, Canada is a close and longstanding ally of all four Eurofighter partner nations, and the history of the defence trade between us demonstrates well our willingness to transfer the technology needed to ensure that Canada remains in charge of its own destiny.

I look forward to being able to answer the committee's questions, but before doing so I would like to offer you an invitation to visit Eurofighter's facilities in Europe and an operational Typhoon base, in order to gain a true appreciation of this world-class multi-role combat aircraft that matches so well the operational challenges faced by the Canadian defence force.

Merci beaucoup.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Grazie, Monsieur Nappi. Thank you very much.

I will give the floor now to Monsieur LeBlanc.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Merci, monsieur le président.

Gentlemen, thank you for coming this afternoon.

Mr. Nappi, thank you for your presentation; it was very thorough. I want to make sure that there's no misunderstanding. Two-thirds of the way through you said something that I want to make sure is on the record. I want to understand this clearly. You and your company and your colleagues have looked at a document that the Government of Canada prepared on high-level mandatory capabilities for Canada’s next-generation fighter aircraft. You've seen that document. And you've seen the testimony of General Deschamps, who came before this committee some weeks ago and elaborated on these high-level capabilities, including some elements he referred to in the Canada First defence strategy. You've seen that testimony.

[Andrea Nappi]

Yes.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You're confident, then, that the Eurofighter, the aircraft that you've described to us, would meet all of those high-level mandatory requirements, if not exceed them. Have I understood that correctly?

[Andrea Nappi]

Correct.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

The other point I thought was important is the interoperability. We're being told that one particular aircraft, the F-35, is the only aircraft that offers advanced interoperability with the American air force and other NATO allies. Yet we heard from another company some weeks ago that the Americans themselves are using two different aircraft interoperably in different contexts. Just so there's no misunderstanding, in your view the Eurofighter is fully capable of performing interoperably with American air force planes or with those of other European allies.

[Andrea Nappi]

Yes, I can confirm that the Eurofighter Typhoon can operate with NATO forces. Italy and the U.K. are part of NATO, and all their assets have thorough NATO interoperable capabilities. The air forces of Italy and the United Kingdom have chosen to operate the Eurofighter Typhoon in the air-to-air role. That would leave the air-to-surface role to the JSF, to the F-35. For this reason, I'm pretty sure that the Eurofighter Typhoon will meet the NATO interoperability requirement. It's up to F-35 to show that they will meet the NATO interoperability requirement with the Eurofighter Typhoon, as this aircraft will be in service in two of the air forces of the NATO alliance.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Some weeks ago some officials of the Department of National Defence told us of a number of simulation studies of different fighter aircraft done by the Canadian defence department. Do you believe the Canadian air force would have sufficient data on the Eurofighter to make an accurate assessment of your aircraft's capabilities? Are you satisfied that they have all of the details required to make a comparison, or is there some detailed information that may be missing?

[Andrea Nappi]

I'm not familiar with the level of detail that has been provided to the Canadian defence committee on the Eurofighter Typhoon. Given the time when this data was provided and the level of classification imposed, I'm led to believe that there are far more data required to make a sound assessment of the capabilities of the Eurofighter Typhoon, especially when we have to use simulation models like operational effectiveness. We stand ready to provide this documentation to the highest level of security clearance that is necessary.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

And to your knowledge, that hasn't yet been requested, or you have no information of that information in fact being requested by the Government of Canada?

[Andrea Nappi]

We have no information that such specific detail has been requested.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you. And I have perhaps a final question.

One of the issues, obviously, for many NATO or allied countries is the issue of affordability, both from an acquisition perspective and also from a long-term maintenance and operational perspective. A number of European countries are going through difficult budgetary constraints, as well as other partner countries.

What can you tell us about the affordability of the Eurofighter, and the stability of the costs in terms of having an accurate sense of where the costs are and will be going forward?

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

You have 30 seconds.

[Andrea Nappi]

I'll be very short.

Regarding the stability of the price, we have offered our core nations an average price on lots, and the lots were fairly sizable: 150 aircraft was the first lot, 236 was the second, and another 150 were purchased in the third lot. We are now thinking of trying to further reduce the price of the aircraft to make it more affordable to the core nations and potential export customers, so that these nations would have more funding to allow additional capabilities to be inserted on the platform—which, again, has significant growth potential to accommodate several more improvements, from the availability of new sensors to new capabilities, new weapons, and new missiles that may become available in the next decade or so.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

I will give the floor to Monsieur Bouchard.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us, Mr. Nappi. Welcome to your colleagues as well.

Mr. Nappi, if I understand correctly, your operating base is in Europe. I suppose that means that your fighter is designed and built in Europe.

Could you tell me which companies in Quebec and in Canada would be involved in building and equipping your fighter?

[Andrea Nappi]

Thanks for the question. It's very interesting.

Of course the core of the production and development of the Eurofighter Typhoon has taken place in Europe, but it's not only within the four core nations. We have several industries that are supporting the Eurofighter Typhoon, including France and other nations outside the core. And even outside Europe, there are companies participating in the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Of course Canadian industry would be more than welcome to participate in two elements of the future Eurofighter Typhoon, should Canada enter the program. These would include participation in the manufacturing of components and the final assembly line, because with the size of fleet Canada would need, it would be economically convenient to have a final national assembly line. We are already offering this capability to other nations where we are actively campaigning for the Typhoon--namely, Japan, India, and all of the nations where the size of the fleet would be in excess of 30 units. Then it's economically convenient to have a final assembly line in country that would also allow the local industry to familiarize itself with the aircraft, so they could support the aircraft well once it enters the local air force.

In addition to that, I said we had a progressive plan to introduce new capabilities to the product. Of course these capabilities are currently based on the requirements of our core nations and our export customers who are already part of the program. Should another country enter the program, then most likely they would have their own requirements. These would be additional to those already being considered by industry at present. For the development of these additional requirements, we would most likely rely on the support and help of local industry. This would include, therefore, a lot of transfer of technology and transfer of information on the product, which I think is a unique asset making the Eurofighter Typhoon different from most of the other platforms available in the world.

Just to give you an example, we are offering Japan the capability of integrating its own Japanese legacy weapons into the Eurofighter Typhoon, with the capability of doing that in an independent way from European industry.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you.

If I understand you correctly, you provide a guarantee to any country that takes more than 30 of your aircraft that they will have an assembly line. Here in Canada, we need about 65 aircraft. Are you providing the same guarantee? How many jobs would that create? Do you have a rough estimate of the number of jobs that would be created? Would those jobs all be in the high-tech area?

[Andrea Nappi]

Clearly, I can guarantee we will be in a position to offer Canada establishing a final assembly line on Canadian territory, and 65 aircraft would be more than enough to make the establishment of a final assembly line in the country economically convenient.

As for the number of jobs concerned, the final assembly line in itself doesn't create too many jobs, because the process is quite automated. The number of people who actually work on the final assembly line is not what makes the difference. However, if we think about the number of high-level engineering jobs that can be created by the activities involved in integrating a specific weapon or a specific capability that may be required by the Canadian industry, this number would be very significant.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you.

[Andrea Nappi]

If I may add, Chris was correctly reminding me that the largest number of jobs would be in the in-service support field.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

That is all the time you have, Mr. Bouchard.