National Defence Committee on May 22nd, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Strahl.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

You've used four minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Okay, I'll give the rest of my time to Mr. Opitz.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Strahl.

Thank you, Ministers, for both being here today.

Minister Findlay, I'm a former user of the LAV. It's an outstanding piece of kit that has done wonders for our soldiers. It's an amazing piece of equipment. I know with the upgrades it is going to offer far more protection.

Minister MacKay, you are absolutely right. After decades of neglect of this military, which I lived through, this military is in better shape than it's ever been. I know the troops and the equipment, and all the things that we're putting into place is not easy but it's happening and it's getting there. When you're done and all these pieces fall into place, I'm sure it is going to be a top-notch military, as we are.

Minister, I'd like to talk to you about our navy. Our navy has been doing some outstanding work in the Caribbean and the Arabian Sea with respect to illegal drug seizures, which has been in the news a lot recently. I think every member in the room is concerned about the impact of illegal drugs on our communities. I know our navy plays an important role in keeping those drugs off the streets.

HMCS Toronto has been tasked to work with the anti-terrorism task force. We have had other ships involved in seizures in these areas and others.

Sir, would you be able to tell us a little bit more about the work of the Royal Canadian Navy in this particular regard?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Opitz. Before I do that I want to again thank you for your service. You are sitting at this committee table with tremendous practical and operational experience. You've been deployed, so your international perspective is also greatly appreciated and valued.

You are absolutely right. The Royal Canadian Navy have done outstanding work. They really bring the shine to our country when it comes to our contributions internationally, particularly when it comes to counter-narcotics. The Toronto in particular, as you mentioned, is part of a Combined Task Force 150, a multinational maritime task force that is tasked specifically with combatting terrorism in the Red Sea, the Gulf of Aden, the Indian Ocean, and the Gulf of Oman, yet they are there as part of a coalition partnership promoting security, stability, and prosperity in an area that clearly requires support. It's certainly one of the world's most important shipping routes.

Very recently, just this month, HMCS Toronto successfully disrupted her third narcotics shipment. In fact, it was the third seizure in six weeks in the Indian Ocean. The sailors and the captain of HMCS Toronto are to be commended for their seizure and recovery of tonnes of narcotics that were eventually destroyed.

As you mentioned, sir, the seizure will deter and deny terrorists the funding that is often at the root of these narcotics shipments. It's also an important fact that this keeps hard-core drugs off the streets of our cities in Canada, in North America, and around the world. That is an invaluable fact and a benefit of the work that HMCS Toronto and previous Canadian ships have been involved in.

This important work is valued by our allies. It is demonstrative of Canada's desire to support security internationally. As I mentioned, in terms of the amount of traffic, and I mean legitimate traffic moving on the water coming to North America, keeping these shipping lines open is certainly vital. We just celebrated the anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic. We know that the important work done during the Battle of the Atlantic was very much about keeping the supply lanes open to Europe.

This is in the same vein, in keeping with that same tradition of contribution by the Canadian Navy to ensure the free flow and passage of goods between Canada and our allies, and Canada and our trading partners.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Minister, training with other nations is always something that's very important to our forces. I think it's a key factor in seamless operations, whether it's with NATO, NORAD, or counter-terrorism task forces, because that experience is invaluable for our troops and other troops in the familiarity with one another.

Last summer there was a major exercise in the Pacific called RIMPAC that involved maritime, air, and land participation. Canada participated with air and naval assets, as well as infantry officers—may I add a “hoowa” to that.

Minister, you observed these exercises. Can you perhaps give the committee some information on the exercise and how in your opinion it contributes to the readiness of our forces to participate in these joint missions around the world?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Opitz, Mr. Chair.

In addition to the practical work that's done in places like the Gulf of Aden and the Horn of Africa, we have contributed practically to naval operations exercises, counter-narcotics in the Caribbean, and in training as well.

You mentioned RIMPAC, which is the largest military exercise in the Pacific. It involves some 1,400 Canadian sailors, soldiers, infantry, and members of the Canadian Air Force. The exercise this year involved 22 nations and some 25,000 personnel overall in the week-long exercise.

Canada this year played a very important leadership role in the exercise. Rear-Admiral Lloyd was the deputy commander of the total exercise. Brigadier-General Mike Hood was the air component commander. Other key command positions were held by Canadians, including then Commodore Pete Ellis, who commanded the amphibious task force. Captain (Navy) Dermot Mulholland was the sea combat commander, and Lieutenant-Colonel Wayne Joy was the commander of the maritime patrol and reconnaissance air group.

We figured very prominently in the exercise. It provided an outstanding opportunity for Canadian Forces personnel to train with our key allies and to rebuild, and build upon, the trust and confidence that other countries have in Canada's ability.

I note that one of the highlights I witnessed at RIMPAC was the successful sinking of a decommissioned American vessel, a warship, by HMCS Victoria, our west coast submarine. This was an important milestone in the operationalization of our submarine fleet. Again, it is a tribute to the members of the Royal Canadian Navy for their work, their diligence, and their desire to make a difference in the world.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. The time has expired.

Mr. McKay, you have the last 10 minutes.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister.

The last time you were here for the main estimates, you presented main estimates of $18.429 billion, yet in the estimates to date, the accumulation, it's gone up to $19.3 billion. That's almost a $1-billion difference.

Can you explain the difference between this time last year and where we are today on the 2012-13 estimates, please?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Well, Mr. McKay, you would know that year over year there is an allotment that is specifically dedicated to the Canadian Armed Forces for our annual budget. We have made decisions with respect to budget reductions based on our contribution to the overall effort to reduce the deficit to bring us back into a balanced budget in the near term.

With respect to the specific budgetary allotments, they are before you in the form of the main estimates.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

This isn't a decrease; this is an increase. The difference between the main estimates this time last year and what has accumulated to date, it's almost $1 billion more.

There has to be some explanation; I just don't know what it is.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Can you tell me again the specific figure that you're referring to?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

The main estimates of 2012-13 were for $18.429 billion. In the estimates today, it's $19.3 billion.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. McKay, the monetary amount you're referring to that appears as an increase is attributable to the case of Queen and Manuge, which comes out to almost $900 million. That is being paid out, as you know, in various allotments.

I can point to those figures, but that accounts for that.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

No, that's fine. It just jumped out at me as a discrepancy that didn't seem to....

I know that the government's mantra is that we're trying to get this budget down to $17 billion or $18 billion, and this doesn't make any sense.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

That's a one-time payment.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Yes.

Effectively, we should be looking at going from $18.4 billion down to $16.6 billion; in other words, a $1.8-billion drop from 2012-13 to 2013-14.

Is that fair?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Yes, those are the figures.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Okay.

The next page has to do with how you're going to do it. I'm looking at readiness—these are my numbers here, just rough figures—and it looks like you're taking about $844 million out of readiness.

Is that a reasonable assumption? Is that correct?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I wouldn't describe it as taking it out of readiness, Mr. McKay. I would suggest that we have looked across the board at ways in which we can find efficiencies and reduce spending that can be done more effectively.

On the issue with respect to personnel, you are seeing reflected in these main estimates a move away from, in some cases, reservists who had been called up to full-time service and who will now be returning to that part-time service.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Are the moves from full-time to reserve in these readiness numbers, or are they in separate locations?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

That would be reflected partly in readiness, yes.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

You may not like the phrasing of taking $1 billion out of readiness, but the bottom line is that you either had to run lean and mean last year or you're running lean and mean this year. You can't have it both ways.

For better understanding of these numbers, it appears that land is coming down by roughly $247 million. Joint and common readiness, which I assume is working with our partners, our allies, is about $171 million. Maritime readiness is coming down $242 million, and aerospace about $184 million.

Does that sound right to you?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Again, those figures reflect a reality that we are no longer in a combat mission. We are no longer performing the same degree of deployed operations that certainly accounted for much of the spending when it came to the issue of readiness. We are returning to what the head of the army, who appeared before this committee, would describe as a more steady state.