National Defence Committee on June 3rd, 2013

[Gregory Woolvett]

No, he definitely presented as a normal soldier. He was even promoted from corporal to master corporal. He was made a 2IC, a second-in-command, out of his unit in Afghanistan, and was well thought of. He was fast-tracked to become a sergeant.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

So it was after his second deployment that things really started to....

[Gregory Woolvett]

Yes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Ms. Allison, you mentioned your dealings with the MFRC, the military family resource centre. How long after your daughter came home did you engage with them? What has your experience been overall?

You mentioned some issues there, and I just wanted to get some feedback on that resource. What are they doing, and what could they be doing better?

[Heather Allison]

Actually, I brought up PTSD before my daughter returned home from Afghanistan on her second tour, just so other parents would be informed. I had already started reading up on it, because I thought I had to arm myself, in case; there was nowhere else.

I don't think the MFRC is equipped to handle people who have family members with PTSD. I've now joined OSISS, a support group in St. John's, Newfoundland, and I must say that the OSISS coordinators do a bang-up job.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

What does OSISS stand for? Occupational stress injury—

[Heather Allison]

Occupational stress injury support system. There's one for families and there is one for soldiers. They are separate. We meet and we talk about things.

The MFRC is for family, but it's for the everyday goings-on of the family. I actually had several issues when my daughter deployed. I couldn't get her son health care in Canada. Go figure. For a year and a half, nobody wanted to cover him. That, ladies and gentlemen, is terrible. MFRC couldn't help me. One of the psychologists at the MFRC said, “Well, she's a single mom. Why would she deploy? What kind of mother would deploy?” This is what we're dealing with. They aren't all like that, but this particular social worker at the MFRC was doing a maternity leave. She wasn't their ongoing one.

The MFRC just isn't equipped. They are not trained, and they just don't want to talk about it, to be quite honest.

I must say that if it weren't for OSISS in St. John's.... I might add that as a mom, I belong to an OSISS group made up of mostly spouses—there aren't a lot parents in Newfoundland—and we have this thing that we don't want everybody knowing our business, so it's kind of hard to get the parents out. I'm trying to promote that.

I got word on Wednesday that my daughter was finally getting in to Homewood. I went to the floor crying, I was so excited. I had a meeting the next day with my OSISS group, and I was scared to death to tell them, petrified. I was excited; I wanted them to know, but I knew those other spouses and parents would be upset because it wasn't their soldier, and they've been waiting longer than mine has.

This is what we deal with on a daily basis.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Our last set of questions for this hour goes to Mr. Larose.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses.

I've been very touched, as a father and having served briefly myself—I've never gone overseas—by what you've been saying today. As a parent, I hear your cry, I hear your scream, I hear your anger. I feel that you've been fighting for a long time. I wonder if you find that there is any light at the end of the tunnel. Do you believe that the relationship between the Canadian Armed Forces and the parents should change? Do you have any recommendations? Can you tell us a little bit about how much you've fought, in the case of your daughter, how far you've gone? Do you feel that the programs were there before both of you started fighting for your children?

[Heather Allison]

The programs may be there, but they are so hard to access, especially living in Newfoundland.

We have so many outports. Some of those ports don't even have Internet, and when you try to get a hold of somebody to get information, you get, “Well, google it”, or, “It's www...”, or “Press 2, press 8.” A lot of people in these outports in Newfoundland don't even have computers, but that's the only way they can access this information. We need to reach those people. And I'm sure there are other areas in Canada, small towns, where this happens too. I think we could have a better outreach program for them and make that information available. I think just making it more accessible would be the best thing, to be quite honest.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Definitely, with the experience you've gone through, it's a little bit sad that you only have this time. It would be nice to be more interactive. Sometimes the feeling we get is that it's in one direction—you're asking all the time—and yet I think we have a lot to learn from you.

Do you believe this would be a good direction to go in? Have you met other parents who have the feeling that they would like to share more, that there would be more of a...?

[Heather Allison]

Definitely.

In 2002 I tried to start a website here, Mothers of the Military, just to get parents...because I was asking questions and couldn't get answers. But it just went by the wayside. It wasn't until 2006 that Canada actually woke up and said, hey, we have a military, we actually have a fighting military—when the bodies started coming home. I really believe that. It was in our faces, and even the parents were waking up. I would talk to parents who didn't even know what their soldier did. They didn't know about the ranks.

I think we should be more involved. We are excluded, as parents. As I told Greg earlier, when we were talking, there are things for the spouses—don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things out there for them. But as far as I'm concerned, I gave birth to that soldier. I have every right, and I can't walk away from that soldier if times get tough. I can't leave them and go on and continue with my life. That is my child. I don't have that luxury to walk away to something easier or better. That's not taking away from the spouses. That's just a fact. As a parent you don't have those options. So there has to be something more for us. We have to be heard. There has to be a forum for us.

I don't know if Greg wants to add to that.

[Gregory Woolvett]

Could you just repeat your primary question again, so I can give you the right answer?

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

It was very broad, but it was mostly to see if there is anything we can do to better the relationship and the participation of the parents, which I think is essential. Is there anything we can do better?

[Gregory Woolvett]

What I see, as an outsider looking in, is a tremendous disconnect between chain of command and medical. They rely very heavily on privacy.

I've had colonels tell me that my son is a responsible young man and they can't interfere with his life. I said he was a responsible young man; he's no longer a responsible young man. He blows money like crazy. He drinks himself into stupidity so that he doesn't suffer the nightmares, and they still come back.

I think there needs to be a bridge between medical and chain of command. When they took him to the hospital the other day, I got an e-mail from Major Kiss and he said, “He's with RVH now. We can't touch him. We're not privy to any information, unless he tries to leave the program early, and then we'll get involved. That's a chain of command thing. Other than that, we don't know what he's doing. We don't know anything.” I haven't heard from him either. I guess they took his phone away. He's been in there now for five days and I don't know anything about it.

The other pet peeve I have is the universality of service. They've spent $1 million turning my son into a combat soldier. Now they want him out of the military. Certainly there must be something.... I think universality of service came into effect in 1998, and I believe the military uses it as a way of getting soldiers out of the military, or just saying, no, you can't be a soldier any more.

When a soldier is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, I think the local police need to know, as well as children's aid services, if there are children, probation officers, because a lot of them get in trouble with the law, and the chain of command, the military police, and medical. They all need to sit around a table and say, okay, this guy has a problem, or this woman has a problem, and how can we deal with it if the lid comes off?

As I said, the OPP were at his house 25 times. I'm surprised they didn't shoot him, because he used to show up at the door wearing a helmet, a flak vest, and pointing an airsoft rifle, which looked very lethal, at police officers. But they knew, because most of them in that division happened to be ex-military, and they all told me that they've dealt with parts of PTSD. All of them deal with it, but a lot of the soldiers don't come out and say they have PTSD, like my son.

I kind of feel bad in many ways that I've championed his illness or his injury in the press. A lot of them don't come out because they don't want to be like Johnny Woolvett, a former star who is now just a drunk. That's the perception.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

We're going to wrap up our first hour with that.

I want to thank you, Mr. Woolvett and Mrs. Allison, for your passion and for your willingness to share these personal stories with us. I know, as a parent, that you love your kids so much that you'll do anything for them. You said that if they're broken, you want to fix it.

In our study it's about the ill and the injured, it's the visible and the invisible, and trying to bring that all together from all the different aspects of the service and our experiences in Afghanistan, from what happened in the field to how they transition back into civilian life and how we receive them as they're coming back from theatre.

This is very important testimony, you being the first parents to appear, and we want to thank you for that.

With that, we're going to suspend and we'll change our witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We're back in session. We're going on to our second hour. Joining us as individuals are retired Master Corporal Paul Franklin, who is the fundraising chair of the Amputee Coalition of Canada, and Master Corporal Jody Mitic.

Welcome to both of you. As instructed, you have the floor for ten minutes each.

Mr. Franklin, did you want to go first?

[Paul Franklin, Fundraising Chair, Amputee Coalition of Canada, As an Individual]

Thank you.

I'm going to read a bit here. I've been to the Senate hearings, and we've talked to senators before. We've done a lot of work with the care of the wounded and injured and ill, and of course the point is to make things better and to have ideas for the future.

When I came here last time, we talked of the care of the injured and the ill. Since that time, several rehabilitation hospitals and universities have made massive changes in the treatment of soldiers. But that was always part of the goal, because each change made for each soldier also helps all the civilians within each province. Thousands of wounded have literally changed the entire Canadian medical system.

My own little charity went from the Northern Alberta Amputee Program to the Amputee Coalition of Canada, a Montreal-based bilingual charity to serve amputees.

The doctor who first helped me has gone on to research the bionic arm that can feel. Edmonton is the only place in the world where this research is being done. Imagine your arm has been cut off and you can feel hot/cold, soft/hard. The idea behind this is that at the next level they will potentially move on to legs.

But in the care of vets, we sadly have become worse than many of our allies. I had a wheelchair repossessed, first in 2006 due to non-payment, and in 2013 because Veterans Affairs didn't have a doctor's note saying I was an amputee. Only in Canada would I have to employ the help of a Canadian comic. I phoned him, he then talked to John Baird and then the Minister of VAC, and then it went to my case manager. I was an amputee finally allowed to get my wheelchair back, only with that doctor's note and the help of a Canadian CBC comic.

My wife and I are separated, and because he lives with his mom, my son was denied dental care. VAC, of course, denies these actions, but because his residence is not the same as mine, he has been denied dental coverage.

You hear from us, the wounded, you hear from the families, but it's really the kids who truly suffer the most from all this.

She also has to write a note every year explaining that I still take care of my child, and even my ex, and that I have family responsibilities. The default level for Veterans Affairs is that I'm a deadbeat dad.

Imagine if you have to do this if you're a drug-addled person, an alcoholic, or you have post-traumatic stress disorder. You're thinking you're doing your best for your family and yet you hear from case managers that they want a proof of life for your son. They want birth certificates, even though they know where you live for dental care.

I'll end on this point. I've lived in Edmonton for four years. I wanted to get my kitchen converted so that it was easier, and I've been attempting to get my kitchen done for six years. I've had an assessment from an occupational nurse, and I had to show her what's out there for access for people with disabilities, from a small stove that's at a lower level to an easier access fridge. It's just basic stuff. And I was using the Ikea catalogue as the example. That's what I had to explain to this occupational nurse.

Now I have to get three contractors to design the kitchen, at my cost, and then they pick the quote that suits them best. It's the typical federal event. It's difficult. Those are the little challenges I have, and that's just my own case.

On January 15, 2006, I lost both legs while protecting diplomat Glyn Berry, and I finally retired in 2009. I've been through this mill from the beginning, and from where we were in the beginning in the care of the injured and ill was very poor. Where we are today is quite good.

Earlier you talked about—we hear all the time that it's world class. To be honest, if you look at what the rest of the world is doing, we are so subpar than world class. To be the world class of the bottom of the heap is not world class.

I'll end at that point.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Jody.

[Master Corporal Jody Mitic, As an Individual]

I don't really have much to say. I'll recap what happened.

I was injured in January of 2007. I lost both feet. At that time I was a sniper with the military. I had a pretty good career ahead of me, I thought. Getting injured was the easy part. Rehab was easy compared to dealing with the bureaucracy, that is, the after-care.

I think Paul and I have a few different ideas on some things. I didn't suffer medically. I went to Toronto, to one of the best rehabs in Ontario. I've heard it's probably in the top 10 in Canada anyway for provincial health care. I've gotten any prosthesis I've asked for. I have running legs. I've run half-marathons. I run five-kilometre races all the time.

I have two awesome kids with one of the medics who saved my life. She's actually been diagnosed with PTSD. She was going to come today, but we have two little kids, so she couldn't make it.

Even when I was invited here...I don't know how they found out, but my chain of command sent an e-mail, even before I told them I had been invited, telling me I wasn't allowed to come in uniform because they were afraid of what I might say. That's straight from their mouths, from my CO, Colonel Blais.

I've been with the JPSU since, I believe, 2010. I was posted to Ottawa at the request of General Semianiw, who was CMP, Chief of Military Personnel, at the time, to help the system. I have had exactly that much influence. I was asked to leave the office I was in because I was trouble, I guess.

It's a bureaucracy. To this day, we still haven't resolved our home modifications. Paul was just talking about his kitchen. I wish the kitchen was my only problem. I still live in a home that isn't done, as far as modifications. We started in 2007 on a separate home. After Semianiw asked me to move here—after we were posted here—we started on another home. That started in 2009. It's not done; it's done in their eyes because they're done with the file.

This thing I brought here is just a sample of the paperwork that Alannah, my wife, and I—she's a medic; I was a sniper. We're not paperwork people. But this is...I brought copies for....

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[MCpl Jody Mitic]

I'm kidding. I grabbed this at the last minute. This is about a quarter of the paperwork we were handed and told, “Sort it out yourselves.”

[Master Corporal Jody Mitic, As an Individual]

We owe the system—we owe the system—somehow in excess of $30,000 that they say they gave us and we have to pay them back. We had to remortgage the house. We had a lien put on us. Our backyard was left as a desert for the kids to play in—sorry, I'm starting to get pissed off talking about it. The contractor still continues to work with DND somehow. I don't know how. I thought he was a scumbag once we realized what he was doing. That's, again, my opinion.

I've been told on many occasions...usually it's our fault when paperwork goes missing or things aren't filled out. We were told we overspent on a budget. We didn't know we had a budget. We were told this is a project that will be dealt with as we go. A system was then put in place. The cap was the fair market value of the house. That cap was then retroactively imposed on our project, and that's how we ended up owing this money.

It's a bureaucracy. The computer doesn't care. All it knows is that its numbers don't match up, and it's now up to us to deal with it. As I said, this is just a little bit of what we have. We were told, “Go home and deal with it”, while raising two kids and also dealing with other issues.

When I was asked to come here, I thought, what can I say that hasn't been said already? That's just my story. I've talked to other guys and girls, other soldiers, that have had similar but not the same experiences. Bureaucracies, like a lot of things...we've heard this about a lot of government issues, but within DND itself we have a lot of this bureaucracy. The onus is on the injured soldier. Never mind dealing with losing legs or arms or broken backs, now worry about the paperwork—when we thought we had people dealing with it for us.

I'll end there. I want to hear the questions you have.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you very much. We appreciate those opening comments.

Mr. Harris, you have the first question.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you both, gentlemen, for coming.

Thank you, Chair.

Corporal Mitic, you're a bit of a poster boy, aren't you, for—