National Defence Committee on April 8th, 2014

[BGen Jean-Robert Bernier]

While they're in service, they receive all their regular salary, etc., so they don't need disability insurance. But once they're released, once they're transferred, if they have to be medically released because the severity of their illness precludes their ongoing service, then it becomes the responsibility of both Veterans Affairs Canada with their programs to look after them as well as SISIP.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

From time to time we have Canadian Armed Forces members who are waiting longer than they would like to wait for some kind of care, especially as it applies to an OSI. They feel they need treatment right away. Sometimes they want to seek treatment off base, just because they would prefer a non-military practitioner.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jack Harris]

You're over your time, Ms. Gallant. Could you speed up and get a quick answer, please?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Why is it that Canadian Armed Forces members are discouraged from seeing mental health practitioners outside of the military?

[BGen Jean-Robert Bernier]

They may be referred to outside sources by the military, but the general principle of continuity of care requires that they be part of the military health system, that their care be quarterbacked. There have been some tragic, tragic circumstances, in cases that have led even to deaths, where care was sought, unbeknownst to the armed forces, outside, and then, not knowing what their circumstances were, they were deemed fit to deploy to operations.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jack Harris]

Thank you, General. I'm afraid we have to leave it there.

On the point of order raised by Mr. Bezan, I'm told by our assistant here that this is regularly practised in other committees. Given the fact that there's a controversy about it, however, I'm not prepared to make a ruling. I would ask for the consent of the committee to use this procedure now, and then we'll find out the policy afterwards, if that's all right. If that's not all right....

Is there unanimous consent to allow me to do it at this point?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I just want to make a point, Mr. Chairman.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jack Harris]

Yes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I understand that these are unique circumstances, but I would not want it to become a practice that the chair took time, or made time, in a meeting so that he or she could ask questions, because often we are cut off due to a variety of reasons.

I'm just making that point. I'm not dissenting.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jack Harris]

Your point is valid. The question is whether it's permitted for a member of the committee to ask questions as a member of the committee. I'm serving as vice-chair now.

I'm not prepared to make a ruling on it. Is there unanimous consent to allow this practice at this meeting, at this time, and to get a ruling later? If not, we'll just continue.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Yes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

I would just say this: the chair always has the prerogative at the end of the meeting to ask some questions.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jack Harris]

I'll use that.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

I think that's the proper process, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jack Harris]

That's fine.

There being no unanimous consent, we'll move to Mr. Larose, please, for five minutes. Thank you.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you very much, General Bernier, for being here today.

You mentioned earlier, and when we went to the base in Petawawa it was mentioned, that there's a recognition of the Canadian Armed Forces that there's a little bit of a stigma on troops coming forward, correct? I believe you mentioned 90% as an estimate of what we think the number would be. Is that correct?

[BGen Jean-Robert Bernier]

Sir, 90% of those who don't present for care don't present for care because they think they don't need care.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Do you have an estimate of how many troops that 90% would be, all ranks?

[BGen Jean-Robert Bernier]

Of those who do not present for care? No, we don't. That comes from the Statistics Canada mental health survey that's ongoing.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

The surveys there right now are done on a voluntary basis, correct? So it's possible that people aren't answering them correctly; they either don't feel comfortable about bringing it up or they don't have the knowledge to bring it up, correct?

[BGen Jean-Robert Bernier]

Except the Statistics Canada survey is anonymous, and it's not conducted by the defence department.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Okay. But then again there's an education also, to recognize.... That was one of the....

[BGen Jean-Robert Bernier]

Yes. Stigma will always exist and not just for mental illness, for many things. We can bring it down, but it's going to be a constant battle. We have improved dramatically so we know, for example, that we have a higher rate of people presenting for care than the civilian population does—a greater willingness.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

The number that came up in 2002 was 452, post-deployment. Is that correct?

[BGen Jean-Robert Bernier]

I'm sorry, 447 was the number, and it has since been increased to 452.