Evidence of meeting #34 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was norad.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Peter Kent
Thank you, Dr. Bow.
That is your time, Mr. Harris.
Mr. Bezan, please, for five minutes.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB
First of all, it's good to see you both here. I appreciate your expertise and the information that you're sharing with us.
I want to take a little bit of a different direction. We're talking about NORAD, and we're talking about the Arctic, but we're talking about the defence of North America, the entire continent.
We just had the HMCS Athabaskan come back from Operation CARIBBE. It was working in the Caribbean Sea and throughout the eastern Pacific Ocean.
General Macdonald, can we talk about some of that maritime defence, and some of the challenges that we might have in working with some of our defence partners in Mexico and further south?
4:50 p.m.
LGen George Macdonald
I know that Dr. Bow has particular expertise in Mexico, so I won't steal any limelight other than to say that the Canadian and the American navies are so closely integrated that they can essentially operate together seamlessly, as we do in NORAD, and that they share information and have a doctrine and tactics that are totally consistent, to their great advantage in operating in both oceans.
4:50 p.m.
Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute
I think that's right.
The very first thing to say about it is that the kinds of defence and security challenges on that side of North America are completely different from the ones in the north. What this means is that there are different services, departments, and agencies involved in those questions, and the institutional rules that govern their cooperation are different.
I think that more of the issues that are in play in the southern part of North America—and we'll call it that—are security issues, as opposed to defence issues. Again, there is a lot of room for defence assets to be made use of and for defence services to cooperate with one another across national borders, but these are, for the most part, security issues. They have to do with drug smuggling, illegal immigration, and those kinds of issues. There's a different array of partners involved in those processes and a different set of issues to be worked out.
I guess one way of connecting the dots between what we talked about earlier and what we're talking about now is that when we say “the defence of North America”, on most of the issues up until two minutes ago we meant North America north of the Rio Grande. When we talk about the defence of North America in that broader arena, there are all kinds of new political and diplomatic complications involved. Mexico's constitution sets all kinds of limits on what the military is allowed to do and what kinds of relationships they can have with other countries' militaries, so it's a whole different playing field now.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB
Professor Bow, you wrote an article a few years back that looked at the dynamics with the U.S., especially when the U.S. makes a request for closer defence cooperation with Canada. You looked at four specific issues. You looked at Bomarc missiles with nuclear weapons in the early sixties; the 1983 decision on the cruise missile testing in northern Canada; the 1985 decision to cooperate on the strategic defence initiative, which was called “Star Wars”; and of course, the 2005 decision on ballistic missile defence.
You argued that much depends on the strength of the government here in Canada. On what defence issues do you foresee the Government of Canada being approached by the U.S. in the future now that BMD is kind of behind us? There was that interesting report on BMD done by the Senate committee. They found there was bipartisan agreement that there was some value in revisiting that. Are you seeing any other defence cooperation issues that may be coming from the United States for Canada to consider?
4:55 p.m.
Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute
I guess the answer is yes.
I want to go back for just a second to say that BMD is not behind us in the sense that the question has been answered in any meaningful way. I would rather say that the prospect of their approaching us and making a request is probably behind us, and if it's going to happen now, it's going to be because we initiate something. In this sense, that is an answer more directly to your question. I don't think that is the next thing that is going to come up as one of those kinds of defence dilemmas.
I'm not sure there is anything on the radar right now where the U.S. is pursuing something that they are going to be actively interested in pressing Canada to participate in and that would put the government in an awkward position. As a practitioner of politics, you could see that as good news, as oh good, we don't have one of these things in front of us, but the bad news is I think that's a reflection of the way their decision-making about continental defence is moving in a direction where they are more and more inclined to think about answering these questions for themselves rather than approaching us to participate in these things.
Really, a lot of the time, if we want to have a cooperative outcome that we're happy with, we are going to have to initiate on a lot of these issues ourselves in order to make sure that there is a conversation about some of their evolving choices, for example, in space, and their counterterrorism policies, and their decisions about things like information sharing that are related to homeland security.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Peter Kent
Thank you, Dr. Bow.
We do have time, colleagues, so we'll do a third and final round under the protocols established when this committee was constituted and have one NDP, one Conservative, and one Liberal question.
Mr. Harris, I understand you'll lead off for the NDP, for five minutes.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
To round off the Mexico question, I understand what you're saying, Dr. Bow. Would it be, based on constitutional and other issues, unrealistic or impossible for Mexico to be a partner in NORAD, even if it were desirable? Perhaps you could answer both of those questions: is it not even conceivable, or is it something that, if it were possible, would be useful, and has it ever been proposed?
4:55 p.m.
Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute
Mexico is sort of trying to answer that question for itself right now, not so much with respect to NORAD, but with respect to NORTHCOM.
The Mexican constitution and sort of informal political convention say that the Mexican military is under strict political control and it doesn't engage with militaries from other countries. They particularly have the United States in mind there. However, in practice, Mexican officers have been involved in exchange programs, for example with NORTHCOM, and they are actively consulted by NORTHCOM on a lot of different issues.
There is some engagement military to military between Mexico and the United States, but there isn't much of a clear connection between the kinds of issues the Mexicans and the Americans are dealing with bilaterally and the kinds of things NORAD does, for example.
The one exception to that is the maritime warning function. There may be some point further on in the future when we would want to connect up the maritime warning mission that is being undertaken on a bilateral basis between Canada and the United States with the multilateral maritime surveillance that goes on in the Caribbean and the waters off the southern parts of the United States.
5 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Aside from the aerospace side that would involve NORAD, and you mentioned maritime, there is military cooperation between Canada and Mexico in terms of training at some level as well, is there not?
5 p.m.
Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute
I know there is police cooperation and some police training.
5 p.m.
Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute
I don't know much about whether it's direct. It may be, but I don't know.
5 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Maybe your research hasn't gone that deep. We visited Halifax as a committee a few years ago. We were at the famous Trinity place where the spy was arrested. They have a vast array of maritime surveillance equipment there and they showed us some of it. I'm sure they didn't show us all of it in terms of what can be seen and how far away it can be seen mostly in the maritime domain.
Would that be tied into this NORAD maritime system as well as whatever there is in terms of satellites and aerospace? That and the one out in British Columbia, would they be two of the stations for the maritime early warning?
5 p.m.
Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute
Maybe George will add into this.
5 p.m.
LGen George Macdonald
Absolutely. They would be of fundamental importance.
5 p.m.
LGen George Macdonald
Yes.
5 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Would there be others in the U.S. that Canada would be privy to as a result of that?
5 p.m.
LGen George Macdonald
Yes. One of the most important aspects, as you mentioned, is space-base surveillance, the monitoring of ships on a very large area approaching North America.
5 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
You would think though, Dr. Bow, that the Mexicans might be interested in that from a defence point of view and not just with respect to drug interdiction or whatever. Do you know if that has ever been discussed? You say there is some interest in maritime, obviously, but are there any formal discussions going on about that kind of operation?
5 p.m.
Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute
The answer is I don't know whether there are formal negotiations on that, and I also don't know whether there is a formal agreement, memorandum of understanding, or something along those lines that governs the information sharing, but I do know that there is sharing of that kind of intelligence as part of their cooperative strategy for dealing with drug smuggling.
5 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Aside from drugs, would it be of use to Canada—leave the United States out—to have Mexican cooperation on that level of maritime domain awareness?
5 p.m.
Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute
We already have some cooperation navy to navy with Mexico directly, and there certainly is sharing of information, but again I don't know that there's enough need for a permanent kind of arrangement there.
I think there's plenty of ad hoc information sharing that goes on in connection with particular...it's mostly drug interdiction, but there is some information sharing that goes on bilaterally in that sense. I don't know whether there's enough need for there to be anything larger.