Evidence of meeting #59 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Guy R. Thibault  Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence
Claude Rochette  Assistant Deputy Minister, Finance and Corporate Services, Department of National Defence
Greta Bossenmaier  Chief, Communications Security Establishment

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

Colleagues, we will bring this meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), we are considering the main estimates for 2015-16, including vote 1 under the Communications Security Establishment; vote 1 under the Military Grievances External Review Committee; vote 1 under the Military Police Complaints Commission; vote 1 under the Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner; and votes 1, 5, and 10 under National Defence. This was referred to the committee on Tuesday, February 24, 2015.

Appearing before us today, for the record, is the Honourable Jason Kenney, Minister of National Defence, and the Honourable Julian Fantino, Associate Minister of National Defence. Also at the table and appearing as witnesses we have, from the Department of National Defence, John Forster, deputy minister; Lieutenant-General Guy Thibault, Vice Chief of the Defence Staff; Claude Rochette, assistant deputy minister, finance and corporate services; and Patrick Finn, assistant deputy minister, materiel.

From the Communications Security Establishment, we have Greta Bossenmaier, chief.

Joining us at the table a little later we will have, also from the Department of National Defence, Jaime W. Pitfield, assistant deputy minister, infrastructure and environment.

Welcome to all.

Minister Kenney, please give your opening remarks.

3:30 p.m.

Calgary Southeast Alberta

Conservative

Jason Kenney ConservativeMinister of National Defence

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, colleagues. It's great to be back here with Minister Fantino and this distinguished panel.

I should just point out that the last time we saw ADM Finn, he was wearing a uniform as an admiral. He has since transformed into a civilian, but is still in service to DND. I want to thank him for his military service to Canada in our uniform.

Colleagues, it's a pleasure to be here to discuss the main estimates for the fiscal year we've just begun. As you know, we have made important, significant new investments in the capabilities of the Canadian Armed Forces so that we can project Canada's values and interests around the world and defend Canadians here at home.

If approved, the funds I am seeking would raise National Defence's total spending authorities to $18.9 billion for this fiscal year. These estimates demonstrate our long-standing commitment to the armed forces and the modernization and replacement of key platforms to enable them to continue to deliver excellence in operations. This is also reinforced by budget 2015, which raises the annual Defence escalator from 2% to 3%, beginning in fiscal year 2017. This will increase spending on Canada's military cumulatively by $11.8 billion over the subsequent decade. This investment is critical to keeping Canadians safe, critical to defending our interests, and critical to working with our allies and partners in the pursuit of international peace.

Here's what the Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries said about that budget: “Not only is the budget balanced, which is a good thing for Canadians, but it provides a range of initiatives that are important to Canada's national defence and national security, which is all about keeping...us safe.”

Through the government's investments, the Canadian armed forces are making a meaningful contribution in a number of theatres around the world. I recently returned from a trip with the Prime Minister to visit the hard-working personnel currently deployed to Iraq and Kuwait as part of Operation Impact, where they are working closely with our allies to degrade the so-called Islamic State.

Frankly, it is remarkable, Mr. Chair. We talk about the division and geopolitical complexities in the Middle East all the time, but in the fight against Daesh, the so-called Islamic State, there is a coalition bringing together Arabs, Kurds, Muslims, Christians, Shia, Sunni and minorities such as the Yazidis and Assyrians. Almost all the countries and the peoples in the Middle East have come together to destroy this appalling threat to human dignity, human rights, the security of women and girls and, of course, Canada's security.

Coalition airstrikes are helping to degrade them. In northern Iraq, the Iraqi forces are gradually taking back ground east of Mosul. The Prime Minister and I saw this. A few months ago, we were at an observation station of the peshmerga, with the help of the Canadian special forces. This was a base, an observation point for Daesh, the Islamic State.

In central Iraq, in the west and everywhere, Daesh is losing territory. The Iraqis are reclaiming their own territories, partly because of the contribution of the Canadian Air Force and the assistance of the Canadian government.

We have personnel deployed in Central and Eastern Europe to demonstrate Canada’s solidarity with our NATO allies against Vladimir Putin’s aggressive policies.

We have military doctors, nurses, medics and support staff deployed to Sierra Leone to help fight the spread of Ebola.

We recently deployed the Disaster Assistance Response Team to Nepal, to provide humanitarian assistance following a devastating earthquake.

Mr. Chair, I'm happy to report that later this month, at the beginning of June, the Canadian Armed Forces will be deploying some 200 personnel to begin an important military training operation in Ukraine to assist our Ukrainian friends in being able to defend themselves and reduce casualties as they deal with Vladimir Putin's de-facto invasion of their country.

Mr. Chairman, the ability of the armed forces to contribute begins with a strong investment in defence.

In fiscal year 2005-06, National Defence spent $14.6 billion. In Budget 2006, we committed to raise baseline defence spending by $5.3 billion over five years, and that was incarnated in the 2008 Canada First defence strategy, which implemented the 2% annual defence escalator protecting the defence budget against inflation. It's the only department in the government that benefits from such a policy. And, most importantly, the baseline increase from the Canada First defence strategy has been used to acquire a whole new generation of equipment. It's been used to refit aging equipment and to modernize it, but also to acquire important new equipment. For example, the Royal Canadian Air Force now has a critically important strategic airlift capability. I just received in March our fifth C-17 Globemaster III.

Mr. Chairman, there was a time when if Canada wanted to respond to, let's say, to the tsunami in Southeast Asia in 2005, we had to go effectively begging from partners to lease a plane. I seem to recall we tried to send a C-130 across the Pacific and it had to turn back for repairs. That was the state of our ability to project ourselves abroad in case of emergency just a decade ago. But now, I was able to indicate to our military that we wanted to pre-deploy our humanitarian assistance and then the disaster assistance response team to help the people of Nepal, and within 36 hours we had Canadian troops on the ground with humanitarian equipment helping to save lives. That's why investments like this matter. There were five C-17 Globemasters, and in addition the very substantial new C-130J fleet that we have acquired for tactical airlift capabilities. All of these things by the way, including the two modernized Auroras that are now flying missions over Iraq, are aiding our military capability.

The refit and modernization of our Halifax-class frigates is fantastic. I invite members to visit some of our refitted frigates if they haven't done so. I was on the HMCS Calgary on Sunday last as part of Exercise Trident Fury. Really, we have world-class cutting edge capabilities aboard these frigates now, and as well there's the refit and modernization of our Victorial class submarines. Of course, there's also the modernization of our LAVs, our light armoured vehicles. There's the new M777 howitzer artillery pieces.

In addition to all of the equipment that we've successfully acquired or refitted in the past few years, I'm happy to advise the committee that the government will be investing $452 million to upgrade, replace, and modernize infrastructure on bases and wings across the country. I suspect that Minister Fantino has more to say about that.

All of this, Mr. Chair, is designed to maintain a flexible, capable military.

The main estimates were tabled in Parliament in February, and my department is seeking authority to spend $18.9 billion in 2015-2016.

This figure represents an increase in spending authorities of $280.5 million or 1.5% over the main estimates of last year.

I should point out that there were the mains, but as is usually the case, there was additional incremental spending in the supplementary estimates that totalled $20.1 billion at the end of the year. I would anticipate that will happen this year as well.

Interestingly, Mr. Chair, this year operating expenses for DND will be 8% higher than last year, but we will be spending less on capital expenditure authorities by some $700 million, primarily because equipment that we thought we would be taking possession of in this fiscal year, we either took early possession of or we believe we will be taking possession of in the next fiscal year. So there is always some margin for rescheduling the actual acquisition of equipment, and that changes the budget numbers on the capital side.

There is a slight reduction in grants and contributions of $9 million, primarily because all of NATO's contributing countries are reducing their transfers to NATO.

I'll close, Mr. Chair, by saying that we are doing hugely important work around the world right now, in eastern and central Europe, in Iraq and Syria, in Nepal, in Sierra Leone, and I want to thank the men and women of the Canadian Forces for doing us all proud in that work. With this budget we believe they will have the resources they need to do what we ask of them.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

Thank you, Minister Kenney.

Minister Fantino, your opening remarks, please.

3:40 p.m.

Vaughan Ontario

Conservative

Julian Fantino ConservativeAssociate Minister of National Defence

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the opportunity to address your committee alongside my colleague, Minister Kenney.

I would like to take a few minutes to discuss how the main estimates enable the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence to continue defending the sovereignty and security of Canada.

One of my responsibilities as associate minister of Arctic sovereignty, with the increased activity, commercial shipping, natural resources exploration, and even tourism in the north, along with Russian military activity, makes it ever more critical that National Defence has the right monitoring capabilities and the emergency response options to meet the many current and emerging challenges that we face.

Mr. Chair, last month I visited Operation Nunalivut in Cambridge Bay and the Nunavut area to get a sense of how the military conducts northern operations. I also had the opportunity to visit the Joint Task Force North in Yellowknife, and the 1st Canadian Ranger Patrol Group, our eyes and ears in the Arctic.

Mr. Chair, our work in the north to ensure Canada's sovereignty is both impressive and, indeed, vital. Moreover it is critical that National Defence continue to have the right policies and resources in place to protect Canada's northern interests and enable the Canadian Armed Forces to fulfill its responsibilities in this regard.

Another major responsibility of my portfolio is information technology security and foreign signals intelligence, which serve to protect our national security and, of course, our interests. While this might be more abstract, its effects are unequivocally tangible and, indeed, critical. Continual exponential advances in communications technologies are transforming almost every aspect of our lives.

The Communications Security Establishment, CSE, has a vital role in protecting and defending federal government systems from malicious attacks each and every day. National Defence also plays a supporting role and has a great interest in protecting its systems against cyber threats, given the military's reliance on cyberspace to enable its operations, and as we have seen recently, cyberspace is increasingly a prime target for both terrorists and malicious cyber actors.

Mr. Chair, let me be clear. The Government of Canada networks are attacked millions of times every single day, and those numbers will certainly rise. The new reality of modern warfare is here. The digital battleground, as we have witnessed, ranges from recent ISIS cyber attacks to Russian cyber aggression against Ukraine.

Mr. Chair and members, these are just two areas where the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence work hand in hand every day to defend and protect Canadians and our interests. The main estimates are a critical part of ensuring that the necessary funding is in place to enable operations to continue.

I should note for your benefit that one noteworthy item from the main estimates is CSE seeing a year-over-year reduction of nearly $301.6 million. This shrinkage is one time, an exceptional occurrence, as it is the result of payment of $306.7 million for contract costs related to the construction of CSE's headquarters in the year prior.

With that, Mr. Chair and members, I will bring my remarks to a close and I would be happy to take your questions.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

Thank you, Minister Fantino.

We will now begin the first round of questions, beginning with Mr. Chisu, for seven minutes, please.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister Kenney and Minister Fantino and team, for coming today to our committee.

Minister Kenney, you mentioned that in its 2015 budget the Canadian government indicated that it will be strengthening the Canadian Armed Forces by providing $11.8 billion over 10 years, an increase to the annual escalator of National Defence's budget to 3% starting in 2017-18. I outline also that our government recently increased DND's annual escalator to 2%.

Minister, how does this escalator of 3% impact DND and the Canadian Armed Forces' long-term funding, and which programs will benefit from this additional funding? Can you provide an idea of how this additional funding will be spent and used?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chisu.

Yes, as I mentioned, in 2008 the government formalized an annual 2% escalator for the DND budget. We've announced an increase in this year's budget to a 3% escalator, beginning in fiscal year 2017-18, which we estimate will represent an accumulative 10-year increment of $11.7 billion, which is very considerable. You ask how this will be used. Well, it will be used on, of course, the basic operations, but any incremental funding will be reflected in the priorities of the military.

The most important thing here is that this represents long-term stable, predictable growth in funding. That's what our military commanders need for planning purposes. This also means that the defence budget will grow in real terms—that is to say, typically the consumer price index in Canada is at 2% or below, so this means real long-term, sustained growth.

I should mention that this is in addition to the accrual envelope that we have as a set-aside, a lockbox fund for capital procurement, which is in the range of $107 billion over the horizon of 20 years, or two decades. Most of that $107 billion over two decades has been committed, but some of it still is available. I believe that $17 billion is not yet committed for future equipment that is identified as a priority for procurement.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you very much, Minister.

You mentioned Ukraine in your speech. That is very close to my heart, as I am from an area that I consider to be under threat in Eastern Europe.

The conflict in eastern Ukraine has been going on for about 16 months now. In your opinion, why is it so important that Canada, along with our NATO allies, establish a presence in the region and provide training to our Ukrainian allies?

I would like to mention also that one of the allies, Romania, welcomed Canadian CF-18s, and they were very pleased to conduct surveillance operations and help together with Canadian forces.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

There are two dimensions to my answer, Mr. Chairman.

First, we think, given the aggressive posture of Vladimir Putin, it is critically important that NATO demonstrate a message of resolve and deterrence. The worst thing to send an aggressor like Vladimir Putin is a message of weakness and uncertainty, because that could lead to a miscalculation.

Mr. Putin has expressed, effectively, a new political strategic doctrine. It's hardly new for Russia, but he has rearticulated a traditional Russian doctrine that Russia has a right and responsibility to “protect” russophone minorities anywhere they live, and that includes Romania. That includes the Baltic States. That includes Poland and Hungary and, indeed, obviously Ukraine as well as other countries in eastern and central Europe. This was the pretext for his invasion of Georgia. It has been the pretext for his illegal annexation of the Crimean territory of Ukraine and his support for and de facto invasion of the Donbas region and the eastern oblasts of Ukraine.

So given the sizable russophone minority in other eastern European countries, most particularly the small Baltic States, we and our NATO allies feel it's essential that we send a message of unity and resolve, which is why we are supporting Operation Reassurance, in which Canada's CF-18s have flown Baltic air policing missions. I can report that the HMCS Fredericton has been in the Black Sea and will shortly be doing patrols in the Baltic Sea. We have sent 250 Canadian infantrymen who are now stationed on joint exercises in eastern Poland, and our air force assets were located for a while in Romania. All of this sends a message of resolve.

In addition to that, outside of the NATO context, we are demonstrating solidarity with Ukraine in defending its territorial integrity, which is why we have announced the deployment of some 200 military personnel to Ukraine to provide such things as explosive ordnance disposal training, improvised explosive device disposal training, military police training, medical training, flight safety training, and logistics system modernization training.

Most of this will occur in the extreme west of Ukraine between Lviv and the Polish border in a training camp established in part with the assistance of Canada and the United States in a place called Yavoriv. It's some 1,300 kilometres away from the actual conflict zone in eastern Ukraine. This in addition to the provisioning of non-kinetic equipment to Ukraine and our diplomatic, political, and trade support such as the free trade negotiations, is all designed to send a message of resolve to support Ukrainian sovereignty.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

That's all your time, Mr. Chisu.

Mr. Harris, you have seven minutes.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you for joining us today.

I do wish to put on the record that your visit here is welcome but that the official opposition gets, I think, a total of 12 minutes of questions and answers to deal with this $20 billion budget and all the responsibilities that go with it.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

I have a correction, Mr. Harris. The minister has agreed to be with us through the full two hours of this committee.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Well, that was just announced when you just spoke.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

On a point of order, if Mr. Harris would like, I would be happy to stay here for four hours.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

That would be fine too. We go by notices that we receive officially, and I thank you for your new official notice. As vice-chair, I think it would have been nice to know about it.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

We just learned of that opportunity before the meeting.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I appreciate that, Mr. Minister. That's good to hear.

My first question is for your colleague Mr. Fantino. It's about something I also just heard. Did I hear correctly that you suggested that your title was associate minister for Arctic sovereignty? Is that a new title?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Julian Fantino Conservative Vaughan, ON

No, it's one of the responsibilities that has been put in my purview.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

So it's just one of your responsibilities, not part of your title?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Julian Fantino Conservative Vaughan, ON

No, it's not.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I thought that's what I heard.

Mr. Kenney, first of all I appreciate your unequivocal answer today in the House regarding the establishment of a board independent of the military to look at sexual misconduct complaints. I do need to ask you, though, given that a directive was issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff on February 25 that General Whitecross' team should be prepared to, on order, transition to a permanent establishment in National Defence, reporting to the CDS, whether I should take it from your answer that the directive has been countermanded by you as minister.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

No, that wouldn't be accurate. It would be accurate, however, to say that the directive to which you refer was issued in February, two months' prior to the military receiving Madam Justice Deschamps' report that was commissioned by the CDS. Having received and reviewed the report, the CDS and the Canadian Armed Forces have agreed with all 10 recommendations in principle and have tasked Major-General Christine Whitecross with a plan for their implementation, which includes an independent process for receiving and acting on complaints with respect to sexual aggression.

I would just point out to you that I think about an hour ago, the Chief of the Defence Staff issued a statement in this respect saying that the planning assumptions that were found in his initial directive two months ago should in no way be viewed as restrictions or orders for Major-General Whitecross to ignore the recommendations of the final report. Any such suggestion is quite simply false.

Chair, I'd be happy to table in both official languages General Lawson's statement.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Minister, this directive, of course, was issued after the CDS had a copy of the report or a draft of the final report, and was made with that in mind. The press conference that General Lawson had also included the suggestion that this was an interesting idea—the independent report—and that they were going to study these proposals. I'm just wondering, was it any action on your part that has given us the kind of unequivocal statement that you made in the House today that there will be an independent body? I say this because about a year ago the military did an internal study that gave the military a clean bill of health, in direct contrast, obviously, to what we see from Madame Deschamps.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Again, it was the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Lawson, who commissioned Madam Justice Deschamps to lead an independent investigation into concerns about sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces. Rather than waiting for her final report, the CDS decided, on his own volition, to take the initiative, not to waste time, through the appointment of Major-General Whitecross with the task of beginning to develop a plan of action on this issue. And that plan of action, of course, will now be informed by the Deschamps report. I believe the CDS and Major-General Whitecross have both been very clear that they accept in principle all 10 recommendations.

But please, Mr. Chair, I think members have to be reasonable. It's not possible for a large organization to implement complicated recommendations on a hugely sensitive subject in a couple of weeks. Major-General Whitecross is working with her colleagues in the command on this with great haste, and I expect to see more specific plans for implementation in the near future.