National Defence Committee on June 17th, 2015

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

We do not have an independent strategy, nor are we just tagging along. We are part of the coalition, that is, part of a coalition strategy that's there at the invitation of the Iraqi government. The lead countries in that coalition are the sovereign Republic of Iraq and the United States, which is coordinating coalition efforts.

Our chief has participated in the chief of defence staff meetings with his counterparts to discuss and provide input to strategy. I've offered our views to U.S. Secretary of Defense Carter and many of my European counterparts whose forces are involved in the coalition. We met with Prime Minister al-Abadi in Baghdad about precisely this point.

You I think have mischaracterized the degree of our diplomatic presence in Iraq. In fact, Ambassador Saccomani, who, yes, is normally resident in Amman, has spent an enormous amount of time developing connections and connecting with officials in both Baghdad and Erbil, so I think we've been a meaningful presence in the international coalition meetings and military strategy, and that is what has helped to define our deployment in Operation Impact.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you.

Mr. Williamson, please, you have seven minutes.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister Kenney, you recently returned from a visit to Iraq, where you visited our men and women in uniform. Based on that trip and other information you might have, could you provide us with an update on Operation Impact to date?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Yes. As I indicated in my opening statement, Chair, the Royal Canadian Air Force, as of last week, has flown over 1,000 sorties altogether. I understand that the Hornets have struck just over 100 ISIS targets. Typically, they do so in firing two munitions at each target, so I believe we've expended over 200 munitions.

I mentioned the volume of aviation fuel that has been delivered through aerial refuelling through our Polaris aircraft, and our modernized Auroras, as I was briefed when I was in the region, have been regarded as an extremely effective platform for aerial reconnaissance, which has been very rich in providing targeting information to coalition headquarters.

I could also inform the committee.... Mr. Harris, understandably, I think, for partisan political reasons, mischaracterized our visit to Erbil as a “stunt”. In fact, I think it is hugely important to actually get on the ground and to get a tactile sense of the context of what's really happening.

As for what we could see in talking to our relatively junior officers of the SOF, the forces who are actually doing the training, they were able to describe to us the kinds of tactics that they have been able to transfer to the peshmerga, the kinds of tactics that they perfected during their own operations, their Canadian operations in Afghanistan. They told us that the peshmerga who they've been dealing with are eager to learn and are very quick to pick up on the principles of the training they have received. We would infer, from the relative success of the peshmerga both defensively and offensively against ISIS in that region, that the training has been effective.

One might even go a step further and infer that it has been more effective than some of the conventional military training provided to Iraqi army units in southern Iraq, which have been, shall we say, less effective in maintaining their territory.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Let me ask you this, Minister. The list you provided is impressive and shows CAF activity in the region. We're going to recess here very shortly. What about the outcomes?

I see a map in front of all of us that shows what appears to be ISIS territory diminishing, but at the same time we're seeing reports where another city fell. When we're home in our districts and folks are asking us about the mission and what the impact is of our involvement with our allies in the area and whether the situation is getting better, how would you describe it?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I would describe this, like any military operation or conflict, as being complex. We should never expect an operation like this to move in one simple straight line. There are always going to be advances and setbacks, but fundamentally, it has gone in the right direction since international forces came to bear last October, including those of the Canadian military. Since that time, as I've said, according to the United States, and factually, according to the maps, ISIS has lost control of about 25% to 30% of the territory it controlled last August.

I guess what you could say to your constituents is that we're on the right side of this. We're certainly on the right side of history, the right side of human dignity in defending the vulnerable minorities who have fled the Nineveh plains to behind the Kurdish lines. We are defending the Iraqi people at the invitation of the Government of Iraq. We are defending Canada and its security interests against this genocidal death cult that has declared hostility to this country, that inspired at least two terror attacks on our own soil last year, and that has radicalized and recruited well over 100 Canadians to join its dystopian campaign to create this kind of seventh century caliphate that regards women as property and minorities as fodder for genocide.

I think it would be grossly irresponsible for Canada, in such a context, in such a conflict, to allow our historical allies to do all of the fighting for us. That would be completely inconsistent with our history, our identity, and our role as a responsible international partner.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Can you talk a bit about the morale of the men and women in uniform who are serving in the region you visited recently?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

It's extraordinarily high. I must say, I've had the privilege of being Minister of National Defence for only a few months, since February. Since that time, everywhere I've gone, to domestic bases or abroad, I have truly been impressed by the morale of the men and women in uniform.

I'll be honest, I did not expect to find how boastful they are about much of the equipment they have, including the modernized and new equipment. I could see that on HMCS Fredericton last week, and HMCS Calgary, one of our modernized frigates, during Exercise Trident Fury off the west coast last month. I could see it with C-17 crews when I received our fifth Globemaster at CFB Trenton. The maintenance crews were boasting about the new maintenance hangar they have down there. That kind of thing doesn't get a lot of media attention but is the core of operational effectiveness. I could see it in Exercise Maple Resolve in CFB Wainwright a couple of weeks ago, when I attended live-fire exercises jointly conducted by the Van Doos and the Lord Strathcona's Horse tank operators.

Everywhere I go I see a sense that they are pleased with the equipment they have, the kinds of important missions they have around the world, the training opportunities. It's hard to make an objective read of that. Of course, there must be people out there who are dissatisfied. In a big organization that will always be the case, but so far in my first four months I have not encountered them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you. That's time.

We're moving to the second round now with Ms. Murray for five minutes, please.

I'm sorry. You're the tail end of the first round. You have seven minutes. I stand corrected.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'd like to ask a question of General Lawson. Is the department looking at closing any military bases in Canada over the coming 12 to 18 months? If so, which ones?

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

Mr. Chair, as efforts move ahead to provide input to the updating of the Canada First defence strategy—refinement of Canadian Armed Forces' equipment, personnel, units, basing—those are the types of things we provide input on that is absolutely confidential. I cannot share that.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Okay, so you are considering closing some but you're not going to tell us which ones are under consideration.

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

I wouldn't confirm or deny that, Madam.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Okay, thank you.

What could have possessed you to make the comments you made to Peter Mansbridge, General?

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

Mr. Chair, the comments, for which I have apologized, referred to a question in which the interviewer had asked how we could be dealing with sexual assault in 2015 in view of the prevalence of this issue being a societal problem. My unhelpful comments were a conjecture that really served no purpose and in fact clouded the very strong efforts that we have going forward.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you, General. I heard that explanation earlier. I thought there may be some clarity. It was not a slip of the tongue. It was clearly a belief because you reinforced it several times.

My question would be.... I have to say that it's not since I was a young teenager that the idea or the excuse would be made that boys just can't help themselves. That's the kind of thing people used to say 35 or 45 years ago, so this is a very interesting excuse for sexual harassment and assault.

How do you think your comments regarding sexual violence in the military might affect those serving in Operations Impact and Reassurance?

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

Mr. Chair, in no way did I indicate, even for the comments that I apologized for, that there is any excuse for any type of sexual misconduct by anyone in uniform, nor would I ever do that, nor does anyone in uniform believe that.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Okay. I would like to explore the idea of the trust and confidence of the troops that the CDS must command in order to be in that role. I would like to ask the minister whether he believes that the comments and the attitude, and what I would consider the normalization of inappropriate sexual behaviour and hostility, might affect the trust in command and the confidence of the troops, especially women and LGBTQ military members.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Sorry, Mr. Chair, I'm not entirely clear on the question but I reject its premise.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Well, no, it's a question.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

There is and must be no tolerance, nor any excuses offered for sexual harassment or sexual misconduct, particularly in an organization such as the Canadian military, which is based on the concepts of honour and professionalism.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Exactly, so my question is this. Do you believe that your Chief of the Defence Staff can still command the trust and confidence of women and LGBTQ armed forces members?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

The Prime Minister reflected the government's view on this during question period. The general has apologized for his remarks before you repeatedly here today. He has retracted them. I think we can all agree that there must be no expression or even implication of any kind of excuse for sexual misconduct in a public institution such as the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you, so I'm hearing no answer to that question. I'll have to expect that the answer might be no, that he cannot command the trust and respect of the troops.

I have another question. I'd like to say, Minister, that I support the idea of showing solidarity with Canadian troops, especially ones who are in dangerous situations abroad, but I'd like to ask some questions about the cost of these photo opportunities. We have the Prime Minister, his wife, the minister and entourage, photographers, and videographers on HMCS Fredericton, which had to interrupt its participation in a NATO squadron exercise in order to have photos of the minister and the Prime Minister looking through binoculars. Can the Chief of the Defence Staff give me an estimate of what might have been the cost of that exercise?

Secondly, with the visit to Kurdistan, near Erbil, the media were left in Erbil but an entire platoon of JTF2 commandos had to be flown in for this photo exercise, along with an entire convoy of heavily armoured sport utility vehicles, according to media accounts. What might have been the cost of setting up that photo exercise? Together, can you give me an estimate of what this has cost the Canadian Armed Forces?