Evidence of meeting #8 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was drdc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:05 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
That's what this committee should ask. In what I said, I'm quoting the U.S. military. I don't know about this country. What I have been fed is, “Oh, it's not much of a problem here.” I don't know what the proof is.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
10:05 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
That we've been told about.
10:05 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
It's only what we've been told, and who's telling us? Do you know of someone you can go to and say, “Show me the work that you're doing to identify these people and how you are identifying them”?
Remember, this is shameful to families. They don't want to tell.
We should be tracking deaths of all vets.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Do our allies? You just mentioned the U.S. Do our other allies do that, sir?
10:05 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
I'm not privileged to that information, but they seem to be able to get a hold of that, and they're referring to their data.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Certainly the impression is left, with me anyway, and correct me if I'm wrong, that part of your assertion is that the numbers aren't there because they wilfully don't want to know; because if they know the real issue and the real numbers, it's going to cost big money and big attention to do something about it. Is that a fair comment, sir, or am I being unfair to your comments?
10:05 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Thank you for that implication.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
In your opinion, sir, what would be the best thing that this committee could recommend? Specifically, if we could make one recommendation that you think could make a difference, what would that be?
10:05 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Find out what the prevalence of these problems is. Let's mark them and demand information from those responsible to give us the information about homicide, dangerous behaviour to spouses and families, and intent to self-harm and those who successfully complete it. Maybe then, once you have someone accountable for it, you'll know. Then you'll be able to make decisions.
We don't know what the difference is between TBI and PTSD. They're subjective. It's what someone comes and tells you. What I'm proposing is, look at the brain; look at what the brain is doing at a time when the person is unaware of their surroundings, when they're sleeping, because we'll see possible indicators of something going on. Compare what they're calling PTSD and TBI. That's what I want too, but I'm telling you, it's very difficult for me to get these people to come in, and I'm being fed only from one place. There are what, nine centres across the country—
10:05 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
—and I don't know how well they communicate with one another.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Sir, it's been said that no war is really over until the last veteran passes. I was struck by that statement when you said that, in your opinion, we have personnel from the days of Rwanda and Bosnia who are still affected.
Can you expand on that and the commitment we have? After all the fighting is done and the flag waving and saluting is over, what are we left with as a country, vis-à-vis our fellow citizens, for the following decades?
Could you expand on that a bit, sir?
10:10 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
My only experience has been the privilege of working at a veterans hospital. I graduated and I was doing a residence in internal medicine at Shaughnessy Hospital for veterans.
I've read the history of Sunnybrook Hospital, and these are people the establishment wants to push away. They occupy beds. “We need these beds for other people.” I'm not impressed.
I'm impressed with the quality of care once they're in there. There are devoted people in the hospitals who provide exemplary care, but it's not easy. A lot of these places are being closed down.
10:10 a.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Yes. They are closing them.
What are your thoughts on that? For the record, please say it, sir.
10:10 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
For the record, we have to maintain them.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and through you to the witnesses, thank you for attending today.
Sir, are you familiar with Dr. Anne Germaine's work?
10:10 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Yes.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
She was telling us much the same as you are, and she showed us a deck. You talked about the brain and sleep. She gave us examples of the brain and sleep. I guess some people are doing the very thing that you're talking about.
The one thing she did say was that when treating people with PTSD—or sleep deprivation or sleep inhibitors, or however you wish to call that—they did use medicines and pharmacology to achieve some results. Although, I think if I remember her testimony correctly, the preference is to have the patient get into some kind of rhythm so they can induce the proper kind of deep sleep.
I wonder if you could make comments on her testimony.
10:10 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
I'm delighted to hear that she came here. I tried to keep her in Canada. I offered her a position, but I couldn't compete with the University of Pittsburgh.
That's a key question: why are we losing good people? It's the money that the military in the United States is providing to support her work. I don't know that she'll ever want to come back.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Actually, she did say she would like to come back, but that the opportunities offered in Pittsburgh were more complementary to her work.
10:10 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
You heard the answer.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
I guess my question is whether she is on the right track. Do you believe her research is heading in the right direction?
