Evidence of meeting #71 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was housing.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wayne D. Eyre  Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Bill Matthews  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Caroline Xavier  Chief, Communications Security Establishment
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Wilson

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I call the meeting to order.

Colleagues, I see that it is 3:30. We have quorum.

It's our privilege today to welcome Minister Blair to the committee for his first appearance, although he is no stranger to appearances before committees.

Colleagues, I made an executive decision to extend his time—a one-time extension—from five minutes to seven. In anticipation of that, I hope we're all appropriately caffeinated.

With that, Minister, I'm sure you'll introduce your colleagues. We look forward to what you have to say for the next few minutes.

Thank you.

September 28th, 2023 / 3:30 p.m.

Scarborough Southwest Ontario

Liberal

Bill Blair LiberalMinister of National Defence

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will, if I may, take a quick moment to introduce my tablemates. To my far left is Chief Caroline Xavier from the Communications Security Establishment. My deputy minister of national defence, Mr. Bill Matthews, is here. I think, perhaps, he needs no introduction to this committee, but our chief of the defence staff, General Wayne Eyre, is here. From the judge advocate general is Colonel Stephen Strickey.

Let me begin my remarks by simply saying thank you for your kind invitation. As you noted, Mr. Chair, this is my first appearance before this committee.

If I may, allow me to begin my remarks by saying that I very sincerely hope.... I have tracked the work of this committee and I think it's done some exceptional work over the past many years. I have had the opportunity now to meet with a number of the members—in particular, my critics—but all of us, I believe, are committed to many of the same things.

I very sincerely hope that in the future, I and the people before you will be able to work with this committee in order to bring about positive change for the Canadian Armed Forces and to ensure that Canada has a robust and well-equipped armed forces in order to support and protect Canada's interests at home and abroad.

I also want to begin my remarks by saying that my first priority, my goal, is really centred on the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces. I think that is our first obligation. We can, and I'm sure we will, have a number of conversations about various equipment, platforms, ships, planes, submarines, ammunition and artillery. All of those things are important, and it's good that this committee will focus on them, but I want to assure all of you that my first focus is on the men and women who serve in the Canadian Armed Forces. I think they are the strength of the organization, and I'm very mindful of my responsibility—and, if I may say so, our collective responsibility—to them.

First of all, it's to make sure that they have a work environment that is inclusive, respectful, supportive and safe for every member of the service, and that we provide them with the appropriate supports to make sure that we can attract the very best and the brightest to the Canadian Armed Forces. I became really struck by some of the challenges we're facing as I visited some of the bases and wings, and I hope to have an opportunity to do much more of that.

I listened very carefully to the men and women who serve there, and they've talked to me about some of the challenges they're facing with housing, child care, getting a family doctor and some of the really significant challenges that make it difficult for men and women to serve in the Canadian Armed Forces. We have to address those things, and I want to assure you all that I'm committed to that.

I also wanted to be very clear that I'm building on the excellent work of my predecessor, Minister Anand. It is my intention to continue to work with our team and all of you to keep moving forward so that we can meet the greatest challenges the armed forces are facing today and also into the future.

This comes down, as I've said, to three very important aspects. These are the people—as I've already mentioned—modernization and operations. Today I'll take a brief moment, if I may.... By all means, cut me off and I'll come back to these things later upon questioning.

I've already spoken to you a bit about the people. I wanted to also acknowledge the important work of Madam Justice Louise Arbour. The 48 recommendations that she has provided provide us with an excellent road map and a path forward to implementing her recommendations to create a protected, respected and empowered environment for everyone who serves.

I want to assure you all of my commitment to ensuring that we will implement all of those recommendations, but that we will do so in a way that is thoughtful and consultative. I'm going to come back to this later on, if not in my remarks then certainly in my response to questions. This is because, frankly, I need this committee's help to make some of the important decisions of how we implement those recommendations in a timely way but also to achieve the intent of creating a really supportive environment for everyone.

Similarly, I can tell you as well that the chief professional conduct and culture is about to launch a public database for all of the defence team research and policies related to sexual harassment and misconduct. This is in response to Madam Arbour's recommendation. We've taken some very important steps just in the past few weeks to begin to put into action some of those recommendations, but we're also going to have to bring forward legislation.

In bringing forward legislation, the only path to that, in my opinion, is through this committee. Rather than just come to this committee when the legislation is drafted and drop it in front of you and ask you to then report on it, I would like the opportunity, Mr. Chair and members of this committee, to work with you in making sure that legislation is the right legislation. That doesn't in anyway preclude your ability to deal with it as a parliamentary committee and as Parliament should after that legislation is dropped, but I'd really like your help in getting it right. It's too important not to get it right, so I'm going to come to you and ask you for that help.

With respect to modernization, in 2017, as you're all very well aware, we launched the “Strong, Secure, Engaged” defence policy, SSE. Since that time, we've actually made some real progress. For example, we have received four of our six Arctic and offshore patrol ships. I happened to be in Halifax a few weeks ago for the International Fleet Week and had the opportunity to see one of those ships. Let me also suggest that the delivery of four of those ships was not without its challenges, but we're making real progress on it.

We have invested in armoured combat support vehicles to replace the current LAV fleet. We've made some very significant progress in procuring the F-35 fighter. We have obtained many smaller but significant items such as new night-vision goggles, replacement firearms and other matters, but it's important to acknowledge to all of you as well that the threat environment is evolving rapidly.

To address the challenges, we've also announced and launched a defence policy update, DPU. The SSE remains our primary road map for the military's future, but through the DPU, we are building on that policy to ensure we're ready to meet our biggest threats across a variety of domains.

We have begun critical work in bolstering continental defence, and we are investing over $38 billion over the next 20 years to modernize NORAD. I've had a number of discussions with our American colleagues and the U.S. ambassador. In that regard, I will be able to speak to that more if you have questions. We will be continuing to work with our U.S. partners to ensure NORAD remains capable of protecting North America now and in response to emerging threats in the future.

As I've said, the shape and scope of modern warfare are evolving, and we are investing in our military so that it will have the capabilities it needs.

With respect to operations, you're all aware...and many of you had the opportunity to visit our people in Lydd in the U.K., and in Europe. You're well aware of the work they're doing. I'm not going to repeat all of that for you, but I want to acknowledge something that's been primarily my responsibility through Operation Lentus. In previous responsibilities, over the past four years I have been calling upon the Canadian Armed Forces every time Canada needed them. When we had the pandemic and we needed help in the long-term care facilities in Ontario and Quebec, and when we had devastating floods, wildfires, hurricanes and other natural disasters across the country, Canada has called upon the Canadian Armed Forces over and over again.

I'm sure the general will tell me how many times that is, but, for example, they've been fighting fires so far this summer for over 120 consecutive days.

3:35 p.m.

General Wayne D. Eyre Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence

It's 131.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

It's 131 consecutive days in this country.

First of all, I want to acknowledge that has been impactful on the Canadian Armed Forces, but I also want to take the opportunity to say thanks, because every time Canadians needed them, they were there for them, and it reminds me how important the CAF is. It reminds me how important the men and women who serve in the CAF are, and it reminds me, as well, how proud all Canadians were and how grateful all Canadians were that they were there for us. We'll do everything that is necessary to make sure that we are there for them as they continue to serve.

That's it, Mr. Chair. Thanks.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Minister Blair.

We have Mr. Bezan for six minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, welcome to the committee. I know that you've been at the committee before, but not for National Defence. I'm glad to see you here. Have you received your mandate letter from the Prime Minister yet?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

No. I have not yet received a new mandate letter. I'm acting on the mandate letter that was provided to my predecessor, Minister Anand.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Okay. When you have that, it will be made public, I hope, or at the very least will you table it with the committee?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

I would be happy to share it. It's my mandate letter, but it's a responsibility I think we all share.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Okay.

Over the past several days, Canada has gone through a major embarrassment with what happened in the House of Commons. As someone of Ukrainian descent, I will say that it's something I've been very disturbed by and very concerned about how the problems we've experienced and the lack of response from the Prime Minister on this for five days have impacted our reputation on the world stage.

Have you had a chance to talk to Minister of Defence Rustem Umerov from Ukraine about this and reassure him of Canada's support?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

I have not had the opportunity to.

I know where he is right now and I know who he is working with, because there are other international visits that are taking place in Kyiv with him right now, but we did reach out, and we have communicated our deep regret for what took place in the House of Commons last Friday.

Actually, James, if I may, I would take the opportunity right now. I, like all of us, stood in that House. I rose and came to my feet. I was not acting on complete information, but I personally deeply regret that, and I would acknowledge my individual responsibility and apologize for it.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Have you had conversations with any of our allies who have shared concerns about what happened here in the House of Commons and its impact on Canadians' support for Ukraine in this brutal war with the Russian invaders or the support of our allies? We have seen some pretty strong rhetoric coming from our ally Poland, for example.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Subsequent to the events of Friday, I personally have had conversations this week with the ambassador from the United States and with the high commissioner from Australia. We spoke briefly about that. They did not express concerns directly to me. I think they understand how unfortunate this was and frankly how embarrassing for Parliament. I did not hear from them that it was affecting their confidence or our relationship.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I just want to state for the record that Conservatives stand with Ukraine. We support the government's support for Ukraine and everything you've done. We actually just ask you to do more. That is unwavering. Ukraine must win this war.

I also want to echo your words to the great men and women serving in the Canadian Armed Forces for the work they're doing here in Canada and in Operation Laser, Operation Lentus and Operation Vector. It's been just outstanding and something we all take pride in but, as a committee, we've seen the guys working in Operation Unifier training Ukrainian soldiers in the camp there. We've seen our guys and the great job they're doing in leading EFP Latvia.

We're certainly grateful for each and every one of them, but we have a problem with getting and keeping new recruits in the Canadian Armed Forces. It's been eight years now that the Liberals have been in power, and I don't think we've ever had troop strength so low. We've heard at committee here that it's around 16,000 short. I know that when I sent in an Order Paper question back in April, which Mr. May actually signed, troop strength was only about 8,000.

What is the actual number? How short are we with respect to the number of members we have in the Canadian Armed Forces today?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

In the last three years we've lost more people than we've been able to recruit, but we're turning it around.

I'm going to turn, if I may, to the chief of the defence staff, because he shared with me just a few moments before I began to speak what I think is some pretty good news in that regard, and I think we should share with the committee—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

We'll deal with that in the second hour when we just have General Eyre and the officials.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Yes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I want your comment on what you see as the shortage, what the number is, and what you are going to do about it as Minister of National Defence. General Eyre has said in the past that the existential threat facing Canada is that we don't have enough men and women serving in the Canadian Armed Forces.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

There are a number of things the Canadian Armed Forces is doing in order to improve our recruitment. For example, the Royal Canadian Navy has a program under which they're bringing people in for a 12-month period. There are eight weeks of training and then they're deployed on ships and given a lot of different exposure to different functions within the navy. All of that, I think, is a really good way to introduce people.

I'd also say that when I was in Halifax for the International Fleet Week, seeing those sailors walking around the streets of Halifax in their brilliant white uniforms was an inspiration to me, but I also hope it was an inspiration to all sorts of young people who witnessed that and saw that there was a career to be had in the Canadian Armed Forces.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

My last question before I get cut off by the chair is this: Where are we at with “Strong, Secure, Engaged” and having the defence policy update? The Liberals promised a plan on how to get things built and how to fund that. According to the PBO, the money that was supposed to be attributed is already $10 billion short. We have ships rotting out right now. We're hearing that we have frigates that are having trouble getting to sea and submarines that we can't keep in the water, yet all the major projects to replace those are sliding to the left and it will be years before we see any replacements.

Where's the DPU, and how are you going to make sure we actually get the money spent to get the kit our troops, our sailors and our air crew need?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Unfortunately Mr. Bezan has run out of time on his question. I'm sure we'll come back to it.

Colleagues, I'm trying to get in two full rounds, so I have to be fairly disciplined, because I'm sure you want to talk to the minister.

Mr. Fisher, go ahead for six minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to you and your team, Minister Blair, for being here.

Thank you very much, General and Colonel, for your service to our country.

We have talked a lot in this committee about recruitment and retention, and you heard these things touched on already today. Focusing on the importance of building a more inclusive and diverse defence team and ensuring that everyone who serves in the CAF or who works at DND has a healthy workplace, free from harassment, discrimination, sexual misconduct and violence, are going to help recruiting efforts and help retain the amazing skilled personnel we have today.

You've acknowledged that not your personal mandate letter but the Minister of Defence's mandate letter makes it very clear that reforms are necessary and an absolute priority. I'm interested in hearing about why this is a priority for you personally as the new minister. I recognize that culture change isn't going to happen overnight, but can you give us a snapshot of where we are today on these reforms and where you personally are hoping to go?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Thanks, Darren.

I think this is the most important question, because sometimes you have to put more than just words to a commitment to the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces and ensuring that they have a work environment that is truly safe and where they feel supported, respected and included.

One thing the Canadian Armed Forces has embarked upon is an effort to bring greater diversity and to recruit women into the Canadian forces in greater numbers, as well as indigenous people and people who have a diversity of perspectives and who know what it's like to be an immigrant, for example, or to face discrimination.

By the way, that diversity and those perspectives are going to make the Canadian Armed Forces stronger, more resilient and more capable. However, if we're going to attract that diversity and keep it within the organization by nurturing it and supporting it into leadership positions, we have to make sure that we take all the steps necessary.

I also want to acknowledge that there is so much about the Canadian Armed Forces that is a proud tradition. It's a commitment to serving us and to sacrifice. They have a long history of coming to our aid when we need them. They have served in incredibly difficult circumstances and fought bravely on behalf of this country. There is much for the Canadian Armed Forces to be proud of.

At the same time, we know there have been incidents within the forces when people have felt less than respected, have not felt supported and have not felt safe. Women have experienced sexual harassment. People of colour have experienced racial discrimination. All of these things cannot be tolerated in the modern Canadian Armed Forces. I'm not the only one who believes that, because I've heard from the general and his entire command team that unwavering commitment to supporting the men and women of the service.

We are making some real strides. For example, Justice Arbour's recommendations are extremely helpful in this regard. I met yesterday with the external monitor, Madame Therrien, who is giving us monthly reports and publishing quarterly reports and updates on the progress that is being made. I think that's incredibly valuable as well.

We've been able to take some steps very quickly, for example, on recommendation five, with respect to the investigation and prosecution of sexual assault offences arising within the Canadian Armed Forces. We took interim measures in response to that. There are going to have to be legislative changes, but we put some measures in place so that 100% of the new cases are now being referred into the civilian criminal justice system.

We also heard very clearly about concerns within the recommendations regarding the duty to report or even having access to the Canadian human rights...to have complaints investigated. We're taking very quick steps, but let me also say that there is much more to do.

Don't get me wrong. I've never served in the Canadian Armed Forces, but I had the opportunity to wear a uniform for a long period of time, and I had the responsibility for a very diverse uniformed workforce. I knew there that it was my responsibility to make sure that I protected and made safe every member of that service. I believe that same commitment exists within the Canadian Armed Forces.

It is my first priority. All the investments in boats, planes and equipment are important, but none of them will help us achieve what we need to achieve if we don't create the right environment for the men and women who serve in the forces. It has to be our first priority.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you very much for that, Minister Blair.

Back home in Nova Scotia, folks are very proud of our Arctic offshore patrol ships. When the Margaret Brooke was touring the Arctic, everybody—me included—was bursting with pride.

There's a growing interest in this region in Canada's north. It's no secret that since the start of Russia's unprovoked war in Ukraine, there's even more interest.

Can you speak to some of the investments that we're making to promote and defend our Arctic sovereignty, and what we're doing in partnership with our allies in the north?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Thanks for the question. I agree. It's an absolutely critical one for us.

We have international obligations to NATO. We'll be happy to chat later on about how we are supporting our enhanced presence in Latvia and the other things we're doing. We are supporting Ukraine. We're significantly increasing our presence in the Indo-Pacific and being consistently present there.

I believe our first priority must be the protection of Canada—that is the first responsibility of the Canadian Armed Forces—and being present in the Arctic.

The threats that Canada currently faces in almost every incident are coming from other hostile nations active in that region. We need to be present there. It's one of the reasons our government announced a few years ago a $38-billion investment in NORAD enhancement. Investing in such things as over-the-horizon radar systems and over-the-polar radar systems is important, but that in and of itself is not enough. We need to be present there. We need to make sure that we have those Arctic offshore patrol boats present and that we support the ranger program and the presence of the Canadian Armed Forces.

We've invested in the F-35 jets that are going to give us—