National Defence Committee on Nov. 9th, 2023

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

On a point of order, you can't introduce another motion in the middle of a motion.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

If you want, I could read the motion as amended by Mr. Fillmore. I have it in front of me.

We sent the new version to the clerk.

The motion as amended would read, “That, considering the joint statement of the respective Premiers of Quebec and Ontario dated November 7, 2023 concerning the public procurement of the CP-140 Aurora replacement by the federal government, the Committee is of the opinion that the government must proceed by way of a formal request for proposals before awarding any procurement contract of the new Canadian Multi-Mission Aircraft”.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I just want to make sure that we keep the sentence that constitutes the second part of the motion: “That the Chairman of the Committee immediately report this resolution of the Committee to the House”.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Yes, and that the chair of the committee immediately report this is there.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Lalonde.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to make sure once we pass this part, I get to bring forward an amendment to the motion before we do the final vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Do we have enough consensus on the way James has read it into the record?

(Amendment agreed to)

Ms. Lalonde.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to bring forward an amendment to the new and improved motion. It's an addition to the last part of our motion, “That the Chairman of the Committee immediately report this resolution of the Committee to the House.” That's where I would add, “and that pursuant to Standing Order 109, the Committee request the government table a comprehensive response to this report.”

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Christine.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I understand it, adopting Ms. Lalonde's amendment would mean that no one could move a concurrence motion for 120 days. But we never know what might happen between now and then. A contract could be awarded to Boeing, for example. That would put an end to the debate on the motion, and it would no longer be possible to debate it in the House.

In that context, I have to vote against the amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Is there any other conversation on the amendment moved by Ms. Lalonde?

(Amendment agreed to)

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

With that, we do need to suspend.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Let's come to order.

Thank you again for your patience.

Colleagues, I'm intending to go to 5:37 p.m. or 5:40 p.m. and then call it at that point. I'm hoping to get in two rounds. I would ask everyone to be economical with both the opening statements and questions.

Mr. Banks, sir, you have five minutes, please.

[Christopher Banks, Sergeant (Retired), As an Individual]

Thank you.

My name is Christopher Banks. I retired as a sergeant and quartermaster after 20 years in the army reserve.

During my career, I deployed to Bosnia in 2003 as a peacekeeper. I deployed to Afghanistan in 2008 as a machine gunner in the battle group. I deployed in Operation Cadence in 2010, the Canadian Forces contribution to the RCMP-led security task force for the G8 conference in Toronto. I deployed again in 2010 on Operation Nanook, an Arctic sovereignty patrol based out of Resolute Bay in Nunavut. My last deployment was in 2017 on Operation Lentus. We were based out of Rigaud, Quebec, in response to the flooding. I suffered an OSI from combat and retired “3B” in 2019. I then began working as an advocate for veterans and for serving military.

One thing that gives me pride about my service, when I reflect back, is how uniquely capable we are as an institution. I have quite literally seen engineers move mountains. I have seen the impact we've had on Canadians when we've engaged positively with them. The three domestic operations I served on were progressively more fulfilling. In Resolute Bay, I met with a shopkeeper who told us how excited he and the whole town were to have us. They were especially thankful for our contributions to their economy. In Hudson, Quebec, the town was so thankful for our assistance that they threw us a barbeque in their fire hall.

Within the military community, the discussion of whether to enhance the military's domestic operations capabilities is split. As a diverse institution, there is debate on nearly every issue. However, the debate here focuses on primarily two criticisms—that the CAF “should not” and that the CAF “cannot”.

The first criticism is primarily ideological. What should or should not a military engage in? We can all agree that there are some absolutes. The military must be a combat-ready force capable of defending the nation. The military should not be the police. However, within this range is a large scope of capabilities—humanitarian assistance, aid to civil power, disaster relief, search and rescue, avalanche mitigation, firefighting and winter rescue. These are all tasks that the CAF has completed. We are capable of more—always have, always will—and that is the strength of Canada's military.

The second criticism is that the CAF “cannot”. In this regard, the criticism is correct. The decades of continual budget erosion have left the CAF on weakened ground. The error by the government has always been that the CAF continues to accomplish its tasks, and therefore it can operate at a reduced budget, when in fact the soldiers have been taking the brunt of the cuts. Because soldiers are so uniquely capable, they persevere. That leads to burnout, the root cause of CAF's retention problem.

Do you understand how demoralizing it is to join the military and to be continually told throughout your career that exercises are being cancelled because of the budget, courses are being cancelled because of a lack of ammunition, and the barracks are condemned, so you'll be spending the winter in tents? Our equipment is old, obsolete, broken or lacking. Armouries are leaking, flaking red paint and asbestos, and are without parking, classrooms or insulation. There are wait-lists for base housing longer than some members' postings. Bases lack the appropriate number of barracks.

Our aging infrastructure is being held together by the sheer will of our collective angst. Our equipment and personnel are beyond stretched. There's no time for maintenance or home life. Everyone wears more than one hat. Benefits were once again on the government's chopping block this year, and that was before the most recent budget cuts. The treatment of members is so often an afterthought that it is driving away recruits.

No, the CAF cannot manage an increase in domestic operations commitments, not yet. The CAF cannot manage much more than its expeditionary commitments when its personnel and infrastructure are near breaking points. It could and it should, but the trend of budget erosion would need to be reversed. Asking the CAF to increase its capabilities without an appropriate and permanent increase is asking for more to be cut from the bottom.

Right now the CAF needs investments in housing, equipment, ammunition, personnel and more—investments that are beneficial to our economy and that are investments into those who serve in the Canadian Armed Forces and their families.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Banks.

Mr. Ellis, you have five minutes, please.

[Mike Ellis, Deputy Premier and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Services, Government of Alberta]

Thank you, Chair.

My name is Mike Ellis. I'm the Deputy Premier and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Services for the Province of Alberta. In another life, I was a sergeant in the Calgary Police Service.

First, I want to acknowledge that I'm speaking to you from Alberta, the traditional territory of the signatories of Treaties 6, 7, and 8. I also want to acknowledge the Métis people of Alberta who have, of course, a deep connection to this land.

I want to start by expressing my personal thanks and appreciation on behalf of the premier and the Government of Alberta to the over 650 Canadian Armed Forces personnel and Government of Canada staff who provided invaluable assistance to Alberta during this year's hazard season. The assistance they provided made a tremendous contribution to the safety of Albertans, and the success of our disaster season.

The 2023 hazard season in Alberta was a complex series of disaster events that saw 50 communities impacted by wildfires, resulting in approximately 38,000 Albertans being evacuated, and over 2.1 million hectares burned. It was the first time in Alberta's history that a state of emergency was called.

Overall, our response to the unprecedented 2023 wildfire season was successful, but Alberta's government recognizes the continuous improvements that are important in emergency management. Due to the scope, scale and overall complexity of the 2023 season, we are also undertaking a wider review of Alberta's emergency management system that will include local authorities, and will look at opportunities for longer-term improvement. We are committed to working with all our stakeholders to make sure that their input is captured during the review process.

In June, in addition to the wildfires, there was also a flood in west-central Alberta that impacted five communities. On July 1, there was an EF4 level tornado that touched down in Alberta, and impacted the towns of Didsbury and Carstairs in Mountain View County. Finally, in August, Alberta hosted approximately 21,000 evacuees from Northwest Territories who were displaced due to wildfires in their communities. Nearly half of Northwest Territories was evacuated, and residents found refuge in Alberta.

The Canadian Armed Forces members assisted in evacuating hundreds of first nations, Métis and other residents from the Fort Chipewyan area of northeast Alberta who were at risk from encroaching wildfires, and this is, of course, a region of Alberta that is extremely isolated.

From May 10 to June 13, several hundred Canadian Armed Forces troops assisted on the ground in fighting the wildfires in various locations in Alberta, including Grande Prairie, Drayton Valley, Fox Creek, Whitecourt, McLennan, Slave Lake and Edson. Members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police worked in close partnership with the Alberta sheriffs to secure and protect communities that were at risk from the wildfires or that had been evacuated.

As the minister responsible for emergency management in Alberta, it is gratifying to see the practical and effective support that is provided by the Government of Canada when disaster strikes. Alberta is not a regular consumer of these services, as the last time that Canadian Armed Forces members were needed for assistance was back in 2016. Of course, we thank the federal government for its support, and I look forward to our continued practical and meaningful co-operation in managing disasters in Alberta.

On behalf of the people of Alberta, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Ellis.

For the final five minutes, we'll go to Dr. Flannigan.

[Dr. Mike Flannigan, BC Innovation Research Chair, Predictive Services, Emergency Management and Fire Science, Thompson Rivers University, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for inviting me.

My name is Mike Flannigan, and I am the British Columbia innovation research chair in predictive services, emergency management and fire science at Thompson Rivers University.

I am honoured to be joining you today.

As long as I can remember, I have been fascinated with weather and wildfires. I have had the good fortune to observe and study wildfires in my career since the late 1970s.

Most of my comments today address wildfires, but many of the concepts also apply to other hazards.

Every year, there are things about wildfire that surprise me. The 2023 exceptional fire season surprised me. It was not just the record-smashing area-burned numbers of around 18 million hectares—three times the size of Nova Scotia—which was more than double the previous modern-day record of seven million hectares in 1989. More importantly, it was about the impact of these wildfires, with lives lost directly and indirectly through wildfire smoke, homes lost and the stress and emotional toll on Canadians.

Wildfires raged from coast to coast to coast in Canada in 2023. Almost 300 communities were evacuated, with about 240,000 evacuees, and some evacuees were out of their homes and communities for weeks or more.

Even if wildfires are not on your doorstep, the smoke can travel long distances and have a major impact on quality of life, as we saw in Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto and the eastern seaboard of the United States, impacting over 100 million people. Insurable losses due to wildfires in 2023 are estimated at around $1 billion, which is in the top 10 in terms of Canadian disasters. Fort McMurray was number one. Expenditures on fire management activities are likely to exceed $2 billion in 2023.

The Canadian Armed Forces were called on many times to assist with wildfire disasters. The Canadian Armed Forces helped with evacuations as well as with firefighting efforts. Additionally, Canadian fire management agencies used resources from 11 other countries to assist with battling the flames.

In 2023, we did not have enough resources when there were widespread extreme fire conditions. These are the times when disasters strike.

We need to explore new approaches. In the future, the potential for more disasters will increase due to climate change bringing even more extreme fire weather and because of increased development in and near the flammable forest. We need to protect Canadians, our communities and our critical infrastructure.

How can we prevent or mitigate catastrophic wildfires? There are several options:

First, provide more funding to provinces and territories to address fire management activities. This could take the form of buying aircraft to help renew and augment an aging fleet and funding the development of resilient communities, programs like FireSmart and infrastructure, etc. The federal government has provided funding for training for wildland firefighting.

Second, create a federal emergency management agency, such as FEMA in the United States, or enhance and expand existing capacity to address emergencies before, during and after wildfire emergencies.

One approach would to be develop a quick-deploy wildfire fighting force that would work hand in glove with the existing fire management agencies. This could include a national firefighting air fleet as well as ground firefighting crews.

Instead of just copying what other countries are already doing in emergency management, we could be leaders by acting before the disaster strikes. Specifically, take preventative action. This could be done with an enhanced early warning system. This enhanced early warning system could predict when and where extreme fire weather will occur as well as where other wildfires are likely to start in the next three to seven days.

This would allow the movement of resources to those locations prior to any disaster and the ability to extinguish unwanted fires while they are still small. Small wildfires are easy to extinguish even if the wildfire conditions are extreme, but you have to attack them while they are small. This might only be for a short period of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Dr. Flannigan, you're a bit over your time.

I wonder whether you can work in the balance of your comments in response to questions. We're in a time crunch here.

[Dr. Mike Flannigan]

Sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Kelly, we're going to do the first round in five minutes instead of six.

You have five minutes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

Minister Ellis, I'll begin with you. Thank you for joining us today.

It was, of course, an extraordinary summer for your responsibility for public safety.

Would you like to make any other comments about the different jurisdictions and responsibilities of local governments or the provincial government?

Do you think the federal government ought to explore a separate civilian emergency response system rather than simply relying on the CAF, given the testimony we heard from Sergeant Banks about the limited resources of the CAF?

[Mike Ellis]

I guess maybe I will start off by answering your first part. I don't believe that CAF should be the first call. Let me just say that.

Let me explain the uniqueness of what occurred in Alberta.

This wasn't just one crisis point. Many of you are aware that, in the past, we had the Slave Lake fires and the Fort McMurray fires. I think we had nearly a hundred different crisis points occurring all throughout Alberta, which made this unique. That is why we had to declare that state of emergency.

We relied upon the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, which is a great organization. Obviously, from an emergency management perspective, we have the Alberta Emergency Management Agency. It is not necessarily the primary agency. What I mean by that is the local jurisdiction—the local municipality—is essentially the one fighting the fire, along with Alberta forestry. They work in collaboration with them. They have incident commanders. As the Alberta Emergency Management Agency works with them, if the incident commanders require extra resources, as an example, they will be tasked with finding them.

Sometimes very quickly within the fire season we had used most of our resources, I would say, throughout Alberta. We then relied on many other provinces.

This is the great country we live in. Through the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre we were able to ask for and get firefighters and incident commanders from other jurisdictions within Canada. As the fires continued to grow and more issues started to arise, this is where we started to bring in international firefighters with specific expertise.

I think it's very important to know that as much as we love our armed forces, they have very basic training when it comes to firefighting. Certainly, it's by no means at the same level as a structural firefighter, as an example.

What we're talking about here is holding the—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

That's excellent testimony, Minister. I thank you for it.

Sergeant Banks, I will ask you to comment on the morale in the CAF. That was some powerful testimony about the condition and the effect on morale in the forces. There's a recruitment and a retention crisis.

Is it fair to say that when most members join, they want to train for the work they do and they want to deploy?

Talk again about the limitations, the budget constraints and neglect for things like basic maintenance.

[Christopher Banks]

Speaking in the context of domestic ops, for a lot of people, especially when we're speaking about reservists and Canadian Rangers, a domestic deployment might be the only deployment in their career, which may last decades.

There is an appetite for more people to be engaged in domestic ops because it is a way for us to serve and it is an opportunity for us to serve our own communities. This is particularly important for reservists because we still live in our own communities. We don't move far away to a base. That's not to say that appetite doesn't exist on the regular forces side as well.

We want to do more. A lot of us want to be able to do more and accomplish more, but we are also working within the limitations of our equipment and, as you say, our morale is being depleted year after year after more and more budget cuts.

I would love to see a domestic response come out of the military that is superior to what it is now, but we have to do more to invest in what's broken before we start building up capacities as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Fillmore, you have five minutes, please.