National Defence Committee on Nov. 9th, 2023

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thanks very much for the time and the wisdom that the witnesses are sharing with us today.

Sergeant Banks, I just want to say thank you for your service and thank you for your frank comments in your opening statement. I think you will find them well heard by the committee, and I appreciate very much your making those observations.

To set some context here, in the last little while in Nova Scotia we had hurricane Dorian in 2019, a category 5 hurricane. Then, in September 2022, there was Fiona, the strongest recorded storm in Canadian history. In February 2023 there was a polar vortex. In June, there were wildfires, and in July, we had three months' worth of rain in 24 hours with flooding and loss of life. Just in the last year, we've had a hurricane, a deep freeze, flooding and wildfires, and in three of those four cases—the hurricane, the flooding and the fires—the CAF has been deployed.

We're in a new state here. We're in a new world order when it comes to responding to climate emergencies, and there are two things I would like to try to cover in this question.

Given the varying types of extreme weather events and disasters happening around the country, the four kinds that I just mentioned.... There are others. There will be air quality disasters. How can government respond? It's like whack-a-mole; they're popping up. There are different kinds. They're geographically separate, and we're trying to respond in an effective way that saves lives. Do any of the panellists have any advice?

Then, I'd like to come back to Sergeant Banks, if I could, at the end of this.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Let's start with Deputy Premier Ellis.

[Mike Ellis]

We have the local authorities, which ultimately become the incident commanders. I believe that, at least in my conversations with Minister Blair and Minister Sajjan.... We've created here in Alberta the Alberta Emergency Management Agency, which has been recognized as a role model and a bit of an example. They are able to augment support at that local crisis point to make sure that they get the resources that are required to deal with the emergency.

None of these things are easy; they are extremely complex, but the Alberta Emergency Management Agency has the ability to go and get what is needed in order to protect any community.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Dr. Flannigan, just briefly, on the question of what we need to be doing to better respond to the variety and geographic dispersal of these emergencies, is there anything from your work that would be helpful there?

[Dr. Mike Flannigan]

At times, municipalities, provinces and territories are overwhelmed, and they need assistance. As for the vehicle to do it, that's something for you folks to sort out, but you need an emergency management agency like a FEMA. Whether the Canadian Armed Forces fill that role or someone else, we need to build it, because there are going to be more and more of these, as we have seen, and they are only the tip of the iceberg, so to say.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you.

For the remainder of the time, Sergeant Banks, I recognize that you served on Operation Lentus in 2017. I'm not sure where in the country you were, but I wonder if you might share your first-person experiences in Lentus responding to these kinds of disasters. That would be very instructive for the committee.

[Christopher Banks]

I would be happy to. I'm not quite sure exactly what you're asking, but I can give you an overhead to start.

I was a part of the response to the Ottawa River floods in 2017. My contingent, my company, was deployed to Rigaud in Quebec.

From there, I was part of the second wave. The first wave went in to install all the sandbags. I was part of the second wave. We came in to remove all the sandbags. There was still a lot of flooding and a lot of devastation that we were working through, too. We also had to engage in removing some fallen trees and some debris, and the navy was there as well offering water transportation.

Beyond that, I'm not too sure what you're looking for.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

NGOs and volunteer-led organizations can accomplish a certain amount. They can bring comfort, blankets and water, but there are going to be some skill sets missing. You mentioned tree clearing and running chainsaws and other heavy equipment. I guess there are skills that you and your brigade brought that otherwise wouldn't have been present.

[Christopher Banks]

Yes, absolutely. In this regard, I'm just going to give it up for the combat engineers. As a trade, they are amazing in their capabilities, and they are incredibly useful when it comes to Lentus-style operations.

There are things that the military can do that no other institution can, and I think first and foremost is force generation. We can create a sizable element of personnel faster than any other institution in this country, public or private, that I am aware of.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we are going to have to leave it there, Mr. Fillmore. I'm sorry.

Thank you.

Ms. Normandin, go ahead for five minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses.

I would first like to ask Mr. Flannigan a question.

The realities of the provinces aren't necessarily always the same. Needs, as well as emergencies, may differ from one place to another.

In light of that, should the best tool that can be put in place to respond to climate emergencies, for example, come under federal responsibility? Shouldn't it instead be the responsibility of each of the provinces, to ensure more tailored responses to the needs that are happening across the country?

[Dr. Mike Flannigan]

That aspect of governance belongs to the landowners and the provinces, but, at times, they need help. That's why we talk about working hand in glove. For example, with a fire—which is the area I know about—if SOPFEU needs help, they call the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre and resources are sent.

However, at times, there are not enough resources. That's when you need additional resources. It has to be the call of the province to request that help. You cannot just come in unannounced. You have to work together.

A unified command to deal with the emergency is critical. I would argue that, in Canada, we don't have unified command as we should.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is for you, Sergeant Banks.

First of all, thank you for your service.

You talked about the role that military members can play, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about the role that veterans can play in supporting everything related to Operation Lentus.

Should we consider more members who have been released from the Canadian Armed Forces, for whatever reason, as players who could have a role to play in the response to climate crises, for example?

[Christopher Banks]

Actually, a lot of veterans are already engaged. There's an organization called Rubicon. These are primarily veterans who have gone into emergency management fields. They volunteer through Rubicon to deploy within Canada, primarily. I think they also deploy, occasionally, internationally.

A number of veterans leave the military with their eyes set on emergency management as a professional career. We already are. I don't think veterans as a group can play a part. We're always around to support those who are serving.

From first-hand experience, I will tell you there are hardships, injuries and a lot of terrible things that still happen on domestic operations. The one thing that's different is this: We're not seeing someone in another country suffering. We're seeing Canadians—potentially people from our own community—suffering. There are hardships, but we'll be there to support them.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

According to the testimony we heard earlier, not all military members necessarily want to participate in Operation Lentus. Some prefer to be deployed on missions abroad, for example.

Should the role of military members be divided within the Canadian Armed Forces? There would be the military members who want to participate in Operation Lentus from the get-go, and the military members who would never work for Operation Lentus, because they would have announced from the outset that they wanted to take part in international missions, not those on Canadian soil.

[Christopher Banks]

It is a very diverse community.

I would say the Canadian Forces is a snapshot of the Canadian demographic. We are very well represented. I think the only area where we're not well represented is women. We have a lot of people who want to go on operations, whether it's domestic, operational or expeditionary. Most people will take what they can get.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Normandin.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have five minutes, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Sergeant Banks, I, too, want to thank you for your service. I really appreciate your coming today, and I appreciate hearing from someone who has seen the action on the ground. Your expertise and those insights are really quite valuable to this study, I think.

In your statement, you mentioned the differences in perspectives around the “should not” and “cannot” arguments around responding to natural disasters, and I want to give you a bit more space to talk about it because we've heard in this committee a bit of a different scenario from the senior military leadership.

Since you've been on the ground directly, I would like to hear you maybe elaborate on why that's different.

[Christopher Banks]

Can I just get a little context on what the senior leadership's opinion was first?

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

We heard what Ms. Normandin was talking about in terms of that division on attitudes toward deployment. Why is your attitude so different?

[Christopher Banks]

I think a simplistic answer is that it might be generational.

I think there is a lot of rigidity with regard to change in the military. I don't want to be speaking ill of any senior leaders in the military, to be clear, but I do believe that there is a sentiment that things have maybe changed too much, that maybe we cannot handle everything that's being asked of us, or maybe, as I said in my opening statement, it is purely ideological that the military has one task, i.e., the defence of the nation. I would wager that is what it is.

I am a believer that public institutions should continually evolve to serve the modern demands of the people they serve. The Canadian population is asking for the military to do more, and I think this is one way that we can do more.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That climate change crisis that we're facing, the culture change crisis, and the recruitment and retention crisis of the military seem to be very interconnected. Is that what you're trying to get at? It seems to me that that's what you're saying.

[Christopher Banks]

It is part of it. It's a bigger issue when we're talking about the recruitment and retention problem. This is part of it.

If you join the military and there is nothing to do, did you really join the military, or are you just putting on a uniform? This is especially true when people join the military and are told that they have to wait for their recruit course because it just doesn't have enough positions. They may wait years.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Those domestic deployments will happen more and more, and you say we should absolutely be sending people.

[Christopher Banks]

Yes.