National Defence Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

If you do come up with a witness, I'm sure the committee would be very interested.

Thank you.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

A regular base commander would also be good because they live these kinds of situations every day.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're open to suggestions.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Collins, you have five minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, witnesses, for your attendance today.

Mr. Banks, I really liked your comments related to the whole issue of residential conversions. I think you referenced office towers, in terms of providing an opportunity for government to leverage their assets in providing housing.

I sat as a city councillor for a long time on our municipal non-profit, and we faced many of the challenges the military faces today. We had long wait lists. We had housing stock that was built in the sixties and seventies, and limited resources to fix those units as well as to build new to accommodate those people who were on the wait list.

We had to look for unique ways and opportunities to provide new housing for those people who needed it. One of the things we were forced to do, because we didn't have assistance at the time from other levels of government, was to look at the land holdings we owned and to leverage the equity we had in those lands to provide housing for people.

You've capitalized on that, but you were also very clear in terms of the no privatization line. Can you expand upon that? I ask because those conversions that I referenced at the municipal level happened in partnership, for the most part, with the private sector. I am just hoping you could expand upon your recommendation that we do the conversions, but maybe not in partnership with the private sector.

[Christopher Banks]

When I spoke against privatization, I was speaking against the management aspect of it. In Vancouver, CFHA, to my understanding, does not run the show out there. They've contracted it out to a private company who does it on their behalf. That's what I am referring to. Soldiers and their families don't want to be dealing with subcontractors. They want to deal with someone who has actual accountability, where there's a complaint process that can be adhered to, and to not be told, sorry, they are a contractor outside of the chain of the command and there's nothing they can do.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks for clarifying that.

One of the things we found as a housing provider, to draw on my experience sitting on our non-profit, was that it was very expensive to maintain single-family homes, semis and even townhouse units. We gravitated to higher density. I think StatsCan shows that only 6% of the housing provided to CAF members is in the higher-density form.

Do you have an opinion in terms of where we should be going from a development perspective? You did reference the conversion of office towers in urban areas. Do you have any thoughts on that, to assist?

[Christopher Banks]

To speak of urban centres, I think of Toronto, where a lot of people are posted in and out. The 4th division is there. The support group is there along with 32 brigade and a bunch of reserve and cadet units. There are people posted in from bases across the country at various ranks. If you're a private, corporal or lieutenant, it's going to be a pretty big hardship for you to get housing and afford the cost of living if you don't already have friends or can find a roommate or maybe have family in the city.

On base, there is an appetite for condo or apartment-style housing in favour of the traditional houses. Not everybody wants a house. Not everybody wants to maintain a property. Some people just want a quiet space. There is diversity among the demand, so it is definitely there.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you for that.

Ms. Truong, you talked about domestic violence. You raised a great issue in terms of the opportunities, or lack thereof, that exist for those people trying to escape family violence. I hadn't thought about the whole issue of when you're in a remote, northern or rural area, there aren't a lot of housing opportunities and, by extension, there aren't a lot of emergency shelters that women or others might seek in urban areas.

How is that issue dealt with currently in terms of those who run into the circumstance of having to escape? They've now made the decision to leave the housing unit they're in, but they're in an area that might not have those social supports in place the way we would in large urban centres.

[Alyssa Truong]

That's a great question. I would say there are probably areas that predominantly women can go to, but they often create additional barriers. I'll give an example. In Borden the closest women's shelter is about 25 minutes away. That includes needing a vehicle. You can't walk. Oftentimes, these barriers to seeking social assistance are greater. It's been my personal experience that individuals just simply stay within the family home in a potentially dangerous situation.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Can you provide recommendations to the committee that would seek to change our current policies?

[Alyssa Truong]

Oh. I think—

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

If you don't have them off the top of your head, I'd be interested in receiving them in writing if you could provide them to the committee. I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed.

[Alyssa Truong]

Yes. I would be happy to give some thought to it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Collins.

Mrs. Kramp-Neuman, you have five minutes.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

First, I'm going to provide a little bit of context from some correspondence that has been received from a current serving member who resides in an RHU in Halifax with regard to the band-aids that are being provided to his housing unit and that of his family.

The heat pump unit becomes unserviceable. They've had only emergency heat, because the pump did not work. Electrical usage and the power bills have effectively doubled. Open holes in the doors and the window frames allow cold and warm air and pests to freely come and go. He's seen photos of electrical sockets installed improperly, doors taped with duct tape to keep the cold out, and pests, including rats, that run rampantly throughout the neighbourhood. This individual asks why he's doing his job if the organization is not giving a speck of consideration or respect to the people it employs to protect Canada or the values.

Mr. Banks, you suggested in your statement earlier that people often need to choose between a career and/or a healthy, stable family. With recruiting and retention clearly a problem in many different aspects, you suggested that many people have lost faith. Could you just elaborate on that and on what needs to change?

[Christopher Banks]

Just so we're clear, this is a not a sentiment that's limited to the housing situation. This is across the board. From reading the news, I don't even think this is limited to the military. This is happening across the public sector.

Budgets keep getting slashed, and it's.... I'm trying to speak eloquently so that I'm not being adversarial. When we are experiencing those problems every single day, it's hard to watch when the powers that be sit in committees like this or make statements on the news saying that there is no problem and that the budget cuts are not going to create a new problem. Every single day there is something that's broken that we're forced to use or something that's missing that we're forced to pretend is actually there. It's like going through exercises saying “Bang! Bang!” because we don't have enough blank ammunition to go around.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Therefore, we need to spend more and spend it smartly.

[Christopher Banks]

We would need to reverse 60 years of budget cuts.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

In addition to this, the mandate of the FMRG is that it's established to help the Canadian military achieve operational readiness by enhancing the quality of life and enriching the military experience for families.

Ms. Hill, with your studies and experience with our soldiers and families not having sufficient or consistent housing, could you speak to mental health and how it affects the military personnel and their families? Can you speak to your research on that?

[Shannon Hill]

Unfortunately, my research has not specifically looked at mental health, so I would say that it's outside of my scope to answer that question.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Perhaps, Chris, you could elaborate more.

In your opening statement, you spoke with regard to the post living differential. Could you expand on that and how potential relocation, which happens, affects our military personnel?

[Christopher Banks]

It was quite the slap in the face to those who were receiving the PLD to be told, especially in the manner in which they were told, that they would be losing it. They were told, “Don't worry. Here comes a pay raise that's going to cover the loss.” It didn't. They were told, “Oh, don't worry. There is an interim benefit coming.”

It's hard to just keep dancing around it, but things are breaking and people are breaking. This can't last forever.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

What are you folks hearing from veterans and/or active service members with regard to the housing quality and availability, and how it's affecting their morale, as well as further retention and recruitment in general?

That's for any one of you.