National Defence Committee on Dec. 12th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I call this meeting to order. We have a very unstable connection with Kyiv. The ambassador has literally moved heaven and earth in order to be with us today. We may lose her at any moment, so I'm going to start the meeting right now and ask for her opening statement. It's only in the last five or 10 minutes that we actually knew we were going to have the ambassador with us.

Ambassador, thank you for all your efforts to be with us. I know you're in a very difficult situation, so I'll just ask you for your opening five-minute statement, and then members will move to questions.

Colleagues, at one point we were going to collapse the whole meeting into one. Now we're back to what was in the published notice.

[Her Excellency Yuliya Kovaliv, Ambassador of Ukraine to Canada]

Thank you, honourable Chair and honourable members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to address you today.

I'm addressing you from Kyiv, Ukraine, where just an hour ago there was another alarm. Sirens were loud in many regions of the country. Today we faced a big cyber-attack on the biggest mobile operator. That's why millions of people in the country have no access to their cell phones and no Internet connection. As I will brief you today, Russia's attacks are not only on the battlefield. It is a hybrid war, a propaganda war. There are also cyber-attacks on critical infrastructure.

According to the general staff of our armed forces, the Russian Federation continues to wage a war of aggression despite significant losses. From the beginning of the full-scale Russian invasion up to today, Russia has already lost over 339,000 personnel, 5,600 tanks, 10,500 APVs, 8,000 artillery systems, 324 aircraft, 324 helicopters, 6,000 UAVs and 1,500 cruise missiles, but this does not stop Russia from continuing the war.

Today, the heaviest fights are in the east, near Avdiivka, near Lyman and near Kupyansk.

Despite the heavy losses and the average losses of Russian troops—in one day in November losses exceeded 800 people—Russia continues to use the tactics they used near Bakhmut, just throwing people into the fight and not taking into account the losses.

Also, Russia continues to attack critical infrastructure. Just yesterday, eight ballistic missiles were launched by Russia over the Kyiv region. Thank you, Canada, for providing us with air defence systems. All of these eight ballistic missiles were intercepted.

In the night of December 11, Russia also launched 18 Shahed drones, trying to use the same strategy it did last winter, attacking critical infrastructure and trying to deprive people of electricity and mobile connection. With the level of the UAVs Russia is using, it has now launched over 3,000 Shahed-type drones over Ukrainian critical infrastructure, 300 cruise missiles, 23 ballistic missiles and, just for Kyiv, 400 Shahed drones.

We see that Russia does not stop its attempts. As we understand it and as we estimate, Putin wants, for his own propaganda inside the country, to show any small achievements, so Russia is putting in enormous efforts and suffering huge losses trying to claim either some small community or some metres of steps forward. It does not count any losses, either of equipment or of personnel.

We are holding the line. In some regions, we are advancing. Of course, it requires artillery, artillery shells, air defence systems and armoured vehicles. I would like to thank Canada for being a partner in all of the major coalitions that we've had, together with our partners. Today we have 54 countries that are members of the so-called Ramstein coordination platform, with all of the NATO countries plus non-NATO countries.

I would like to thank you for all of the military support that Canada has provided for the training of Ukrainian soldiers. It's crucially important.

For us now, the top five priority needs for Ukraine as we move to winter air defence are, first of all, to protect civilian objects and to protect the cities.

Ammunition is needed on a big scale, and ammunition is something that we need on a daily basis. This is one of the top five priorities for us.

Armoured vehicles...we thank Canada for announcing its support in the form of the further supply of armoured vehicles. We really appreciate that they can be sent to Ukraine and delivered in the near future.

Another important thing for us is the UAVs, because now, on the front lines, a lot of UAVs, as well as the electronic warfare system to protect our soldiers and our army on the front lines against the Russian UAVs.... The new system of electronic warfare is a high priority.

What we're also doing on our side is putting a lot of attention into the strengthening of the Ukrainian defence sector. On September 29, we launched in Kyiv a big defence capability forum, in which 250 major players from countries all over the world participated. We are now building partnerships with the defence sector companies of Ukraine and our partners, including Canada, and we look forward to these partnerships being one of the ways to build defence capabilities and defence production with those companies in Ukraine.

Thank you for having me. I will be ready to answer all of your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Ambassador.

That will bring us to our six-minute rounds.

Mr. Kelly, you have six minutes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you, Ambassador, for being with us today. It's good to see you again. Please accept my best wishes for your safety and the safety of all of your people amid this ongoing, horrific, illegal war of conquest being waged by Russia.

What does Ukraine need from Canada right now? What would the priorities of your government be?

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

Thank you.

Indeed, the top priorities that I've mentioned are the ones that we are also discussing with the Canadian government. Of course, these are the armoured vehicles, artillery shells, drones and the electronic warfare system.

Also very important, and part of the support that we are really grateful for, are the training programs. We appreciate the training programs that we have, and their continuation, because they also help us put those new conscripts.... Specifically, when we are talking about medical evacuation personnel, demining and engineering, all of this training is of importance. It will also be important to continue the Operation Unifier program and the training for the future.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

You've talked about the need for armoured vehicles. Would Ukraine benefit from light armoured vehicles?

If Canada were able to retrofit the LAV IIs that are being decommissioned.... We understand they can be reconditioned, and I wonder whether they'd be useful to Ukraine.

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

For this question, I think the discussion needs to be about the specifics, meaning what kinds of weapons need to be installed and what level of protection they give. The third important thing is the readiness for maintenance and the spare parts of the armoured vehicles, whether they're new ones or the decommissioned ones.

As you can imagine, their usage in the battlefield is much greater, many times heavier than on the training bases, so for each specific type of vehicle, all things together, including the sustainability of their usage, are of crucial importance.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

How about the training of fighter pilots?

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

On the training of the fighter pilots, as you know, Ukraine, with our partners, launched the coalition of the fighter jets. It was the top priority of working with partners for the F-16 fighter jets.

Of course, we need the training for the pilots. The pilots themselves, the engineering part, logistics and navigation were the top priority. As of now, it is the F-16 fighter jets.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

The Shahed drones that you mentioned in your opening statement are supplied by the Iranian regime. In some cases, are these actually operated by the IRGC?

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

I cannot now comment on whether they are operated by the IRGC. Yes, the Shahed drones themselves are supplied by Iran. Russia also, as we know, started to produce its own version of the Shahed drone, which is called Lancet.

With regard to Russia's ability to produce drones, the specific intention, and what we are asking our partners, is to increase the sanction pressure and especially to close any loopholes into circumventions of the sanctions, because what we discovered is that these kinds of drones, both Shahed drones and Russian-produced drones, have many spare parts that are produced in western countries, in NATO countries, and it is important not to allow Russia to circumvent the sanctions and to get the spare parts.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Yes. We have heard troubling reports of components in land mines that may have circumvented sanctions and been manufactured in Canada.

On artillery shells, in our travels as a committee we visited the Canadian base in Latvia, among other stops on our trip. We heard all about the importance of artillery shells and the expenditure rates.

There are reports that Ukraine has successfully narrowed the gap a bit on firing rate, but what are your needs on artillery shells? What can Canada and other allies do to ensure that you have adequate supplies of artillery shells to be able to sustain and ultimately achieve victory in this?

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

Indeed, the steady supply of the artillery shells, including the 155, is of crucial importance. For the first time this autumn there were days when Ukrainian usage of artillery shells was higher than the Russians', which was very unusual, because on the contrary, Ukraine, because of the heavy need for artillery shells, was using much less ammunition on the battlefield than the Russians were.

That's why it is crucially important to maintain the steady supply of ammunition. Of course we are grateful to Canada for supplying us with ammunition, but that's the level, and in terms of the need for ammunition we are counting in the hundreds of thousands and millions of rounds of ammunition. That's why you can understand the magnitude of the need.

The ramping up of production in both Ukraine and all of the NATO countries is crucially important to be able to sustain the supply of ammunition.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Collins is next, for six minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Ambassador, welcome to the committee. Our thoughts and prayers are with you, your family and everyone who is in harm's way where you are this evening.

My first question is around Russia. You mentioned Russia's propaganda efforts in your opening statement. Of course, they continue to spread disinformation, not just in Russia, but in all parts of Ukraine. That disinformation has now, obviously, been spread to different parts of the world to try to undermine support for Ukraine and its people in its war effort.

It's working in some sectors, not just with the general population, but with governments. We're seeing that right now. I'm watching very closely your president's visit to the U.S. and his efforts to try to get at some of the conservative Republican members who seem to have bought into that misinformation and disinformation that Russia is spreading across the world.

What can parliamentarians do and what can the Government of Canada do to assist in your efforts to combat that disinformation that's being spread by Putin?

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

Thank you.

Indeed, the Russian war machine is conducting numerous disinformation campaigns. Just for example, I will tell you about one that we recently saw in Ukraine. There was special messaging, especially through social media, addressed to Ukrainian soldiers to just put away their arms and go on the Russian side. They are specifically able to target people. Of course, it failed, but the Russian disinformation is spreading the word in Ukraine to disunite people, to spread fatigue, and we also see it in many countries and in our partners.

They especially use social media. They use these so-called “trolls”, so numerous thousands of accounts are spreading this disinformation and sharing this Russian narrative just to disunite people, to bring war fatigue and to try to undermine support for Ukraine.

I believe Russia understands that, first of all, they already failed with their so-called “special operation”. The only way that Russia can somehow at least hold the line and not be kicked out of Ukraine is to try to decrease support for Ukraine. That's why they are conducting these disinformation campaigns in all the countries and among our partners.

However, you need to also realize that in parallel, Russia just adopted a new budget for 2024. They have record-high defence spending, which increased from the previous year by 30%. Around 39% of all the budget spending in Russia for the next year will go to the military, the defence sector and law enforcement. Russia is putting in huge, huge amounts of money for its defence and law enforcement, over approximately $200 billion Canadian.

In parallel, if they use this disinformation, what we all can do is spread the message of unity. All the steps to support Ukraine, all of the statements, are now very important for the people of Ukraine, because for them, understanding that there is strong backing for Ukraine from our partners is important. It is also to explain to people that in Ukraine, we are not only fighting for our territory but also protecting the eastern flank of NATO. The security of Canada and all of the NATO alliance is on its unity and collective security. We are now protecting one of the borders of NATO.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I agree 100%.

Ambassador, I have less than two minutes. Very quickly, President Zelenskyy was quoted recently as saying that delaying aid to Ukraine is a “gift” to Russia.

We recently voted here. It wasn't unanimous in terms of our support here in Canada, and we've seen fractures—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Standing Order 18 is quite clear. It says, “No member may reflect upon any vote of the House, except for the purpose of moving that such vote be rescinded”, so he cannot reflect on it.

I'll also just add to this, in chapter 20—

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Just for clarity—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I have the floor.

In chapter 20, on page 1079, it says:

Particular attention is paid to the questioning of public servants.

The ambassador is a public servant of the Government of Ukraine.

The obligation of a witness to answer all questions put by the committee must be balanced [between] the role that public servants play in providing confidential advice to their Ministers [or government].

I would suggest that asking the ambassador to weigh in on decisions made by the House would be out of order. It's definitely in violation of Standing Order 18 in the ask, as well as putting the ambassador in an unfortunate position of trying to deal with political discourse here rather than updating us on what's actually happening in Ukraine.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Chair, I'm well aware of the rules. We were lectured in the House this morning, several times, when this issue was raised. I, of course, didn't point out the result of the vote. I said that it wasn't unanimous, so I think I was very clear.

Mr. Chair, if I could continue with my question....

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're still on the point of order. I have Ms. Mathyssen next.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Just as a note, the ambassador is not a Canadian public servant. That's just for clarification.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes.

Are there any other members weighing in on the point of order?

I'm going to allow Mr. Collins to continue his questioning. The rule certainly applies to the House. I don't know that it actually applies at committee.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It's a standing order—