National Defence Committee on Dec. 12th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It's a standing order of the House. It's not necessarily a standing order here.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It applies to committee.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

I would just point out that during the discussion in the House today about this very matter, it was Conservative member Mr. Genuis who pointed out that the standing order pertains only to the House. It doesn't pertain to votes in committee. I believe the vote that Mr. Collins is referring to also took place in committee.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, on that point of order, the reality is that in the House, you can comment on votes in committee. You cannot take any vote in the House and apply it to committee. Committees are an extension of the House. We are a creation of the House, so the rules of the House apply here as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

In addition, the committee can set its own rules.

My position—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I challenge the chair. It's definitely in violation of the rules.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You can challenge the chair. It's a dilatory motion.

You can call the vote, Madam Clerk.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I don't know what we're voting on.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It's on whether the ruling of the chair is sustained.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

He made a point of order. I've ruled against him. He's challenged the chair. Therefore, it's a dilatory vote.

Clerk, please call the vote.

(Ruling of the chair sustained [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

With that, Mr. Collins, you have a minute and 21 seconds left for questions.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I apologize, Ambassador, on behalf of the committee, that we had to go through this.

Why is it so important that we are united and unanimous in our support for Ukraine as it relates to providing aid as quickly as possible?

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

Indeed, we are very grateful for the support Canada has provided to us. As you know, just recently NATO said that Russia was one of the biggest threats to NATO as a security alliance, which also means that it is a threat for all NATO members. Today Ukrainians, young men and women who are fighting on the front lines, are brave enough to sacrifice their lives to protect not only our country and territory but also the eastern flank of NATO. The support is much needed. As I mentioned to you, Russia is investing significantly in its defence sector.

It's not only about Ukraine. You probably saw that an Iranian delegation recently visited Russia. You saw a Hamas delegation visiting Russia. If we join all the dots together, we understand that Russia, with the so-called axis of evil, is a threat to all of us as democracies. Yes, we have democratic discussions and differences in policies, but when it comes to the security of democracies that Ukraine is now fighting for, our people are dying today so that democracy will prevail.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We have to leave the answer there, Mr. Collins.

Madame Normandin, you have six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Excellency, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you for giving us your time.

I'd like to begin with a question that follows up on the point you made about the defence sector, that you'd like to rebuild and develop in Ukraine, ideally with outside partners. I'd like to hear your opinion on that initiative. If foreign investors are willing to help out Ukraine's defence sector, not only would that be beneficial in the short term in the war against Russia, but it would also strengthen Ukraine's economy in the long term, which it will need after the war.

Could you tell us more about that?

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

Indeed, the attention we are now paying to the development of the defence sector has several pillars. One is, of course, to have production in Ukraine, which means that there are more jobs, that it's less expensive and that we save time and logistical costs for maintenance. The second priority behind why we are putting so much attention toward the defence sector is to be able to maintain and repair more quickly all the equipment that Ukraine is getting and to save both time and effort by having it quickly repaired.

Recently, Ukraine signed not only an MOU but a more binding agreement with Rheinmetall, which is one of the leading defence conglomerates in the world, to launch a joint project here. We would also welcome Canadian defence sector companies building these capabilities in Ukraine. Before joining the committee, I was meeting with our Minister of Defence, and he first sent his best regards and thanks to the many committee members he managed to meet during his visit with President Zelenskyy to Canada. He also reaffirmed that Ukraine is ready to welcome Canadian defence sector companies to help us produce and maintain equipment in Ukraine.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to talk about sanctions, although it's not exactly a military issue.

As you have stated, Russia sadly has access to a lot of equipment that shouldn't be reaching it. We know that there's been a massive increase in exports, for instance to Kazakhstan.

Should we start to consider sanctions targeting third countries that facilitate the bypassing of sanctions, particularly in relation to the price cap on oil?

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

Indeed, Russia is trying to use some intermediaries, meaning companies or neighbouring countries, to circumvent the sanctions. We have already seen several cases, and I would say more. Even today, the U.S. government imposed sanctions, including on the companies that were engaged in circumventing the sanctions. These controls need to be strengthened. I think it's in all our interests that defence technologies are not being transferred to Russia. Russia's ability to produce more weapons needs to be reduced.

There are still loopholes. First of all, proper investigations need to be done on cases of reported sanctions circumventions, and there needs to be specific work on looking at the companies that served as intermediaries. Depending on where those companies are, if they're in third countries, they also need to be exposed to sanctions for specific actions supporting Russia's getting those technologies that are not in line with the sanctions legislation and regulation.

In terms of specific actions, I would also like to mention the important decision of the Canadian government to be the first to impose restrictions on Russian-produced diamonds and jewellery products. Russia is the biggest producer of diamonds in the world, and that part of Russian exports significantly fuelled the Russian economy and its ability to wage the war.

The third thing is, if we come back to Russia's military budget for the next year, Russia is still predicting an increase in revenues in the year 2024, and one of the biggest increases forecasted is additional revenue from oil exports. There are many tools for working on that, but I think joint efforts need to be made to decrease Russia's ability to fuel the war from its oil and gas revenues.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

You have about 10 seconds.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ambassador. We appreciate your being with us.

A few weeks ago New Democrats asked the Canadian government to answer questions about a Globe and Mail report that Kyrgyzstan has re-exported Canadian-made electric detonators to Russia. The Liberals have refused to answer this question. If it's true, those Canadian-made detonators are possibly used with land mines and could be used by Russia in their war against Ukraine.

Can you tell us more about the role of Kyrgyzstan in the war and why Canada needs to take the allegations extremely seriously?

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

We believe that any allegations of cases about sanctions circumvention need to be investigated and that loopholes need to be closed.

As to the specific reports, I have no additional information for the specific land mines or spare parts for the land mines case, but if that is true, definitely it is worth exploring and understanding how these spare parts were exported and whether it was done through the intermediaries. We need to ask who those intermediaries are and why they committed the illegal act.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You spoke earlier about F-16 training. Could you go into a bit more detail about what you're looking at, what's required and how Canada plays that bigger role? I know I have folks in my area who are really eager to provide that support.

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

Thank you.

Canada and 11 other countries are the members of, as we call it, the fighter jets coalition, which is the coordination group working together on helping us with our needs in terms of building our capability in the air. As you see, since February 24, 2022, Ukraine does not have superiority in the air. For our ground forces to quickly move further to liberate territories, as many other NATO countries would do according to military tactics, they need support from the air. The transfer to Ukraine of the F-16 fighter jets will be important to secure air superiority or air control and air support for the ground troops.

Of course, it requires training the top pilots, which is going on. I think I'm not able to share publicly many of the details, but as the Canadian ministry of defence, as a general staff that's a member of this capability, a member of the fighter jets coalition, there are discussions between all of the members of the coalition on what could be supported—of course, the training and many other things including the fighter jet itself. We know that we have political signals from our partners that they are ready to provide us and transfer F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine as soon as our pilots and infrastructure are ready.

We are making a lot of effort to make it quicker.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I just want to talk a bit about post-war reconstruction and that hope, looking forward, in terms of what's required for long-term support from the international community.

Once Ukraine wins and regains its territory, how can Canada plan to support now that rebuild into the future?

[Yuliya Kovaliv]

Indeed, the damage to the economy is huge. Last year the Ukrainian economy shrank 30%, and the World Bank estimated that the needed funds for recovery would exceed $400 billion. Each day, as Russia launches missiles and drones, there is damage to both the critical infrastructure and the housing. Lots of people have moved from the eastern regions closer to the front line, to Kyiv and to the other cities, but many of them are living in temporary shelters for residents who have lost their homes.

We all understand that the amount of financing that will be needed for rebuilding is huge. That's why one important pillar or source of this funding is the Russian sovereign assets that are frozen in many western democracies.

I would like to thank you for supporting the legislation, as Canada was the first to introduce legislation for the seizure of Russian assets. The procedure of the seizure of Russian sovereign assets could also be expedited, so that they can also be one of the ways to finance post-war rebuilding.

Also, as I am here in Kyiv and talking with many people, including business associations, many of the Ukrainian companies and foreign companies that never moved from Ukraine even during the wartime continue to invest in Ukraine. They continue to work there. They continue to enlarge, build new facilities, move their facilities from the eastern regions to the western regions.

First, Ukrainian companies are continuing to work. In the post-war recovery, of course, we will need more technology, more equipment for that rebuilding, and we would—