National Defence Committee on Feb. 12th, 2024

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to ask questions about aspects that do not fall under national security, but that, in some cases, may have an impact on the responsibility of the Department of National Defence.

I am thinking mainly of the issue of per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances, or PFAS, at the Bagotville military base. Many requests have been made for the department to make public the various studies it has conducted over time on PFAS contamination.

However, it is still very difficult for municipalities to have access not only to that information, but also to information on how this file was managed on other military bases. We can think of Trenton or North Bay. We don't know what the department has done, and yet it's not a matter of national security.

Why is there a reluctance to make this information public so that municipalities and Canadians can see it?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much. That's an important question.

I'm actually very pleased with the work we have been able to do with Saguenay and the communities adjacent to Bagotville. We work very closely with their mayor. We work very closely with the local members of both provincial and federal legislatures in order to address the concern.

It is not completely unrelated to the Canadian Armed Forces and DND, but there are other areas of responsibility as well, including with our environment minister. We've been able to work very collaboratively, particularly in Bagotville, in responding to the communities' concerns. We've made significant investment in those communities to help the municipality ensure the safety of the water, where there was PFAS contamination.

I've also met with the mayor of North Bay, for example, which has a similar problem. We've been able to provide some resources to the municipality, and we're working with the environment minister to address that. This is one of those situations where various departments of government need to come together and work collaboratively in order to respond, because we have a responsibility to the safety of our members there but also to other Canadians who live in adjacent communities.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Regardless of the fact that the Department of National Defence has worked with the municipalities and give them some money, shouldn't access to this type of information be facilitated so that the public would feel that nothing is being concealed from them?

Shouldn't a more generalized system be put in place that promotes transparency when similar situations arise?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I believe my parliamentary secretary travelled to Saguenay and made a very public announcement about the financial supports we were providing. I believe the mayor of Saguenay was present for it as well.

We are not in any way trying to have a lack of transparency on this. We believe that Canadians need reassurances that their governments are going to step forward and do what is required to keep them safe.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

The National Security and Intelligence Review Agency has published warnings through the media that the culture of resisting and impeding the efficient progress of review activities is preventing them from running their important work as our watchdog on this.

I think about the need for that watchdog-type system for what Muslim Canadian organizations had to go through when their charitable organizations were wrongfully targeted as terrorist organizations in the past. NSIRA does work to ensure that those privacy concerns and transparency concerns are addressed.

As part of that and as part of your mandate, the Communications Security Establishment appeared before this committee. I asked them about their collection of data on Canadians. They used very specific language, almost like a loophole, to say they don't do that. However, NSIRA reported recently that they had major concerns with CSE sharing data about Canadians with CSIS and then not meeting Canadians' civil rights protections as required by legislation.

Can you talk about how CSE and other intelligence agencies are clearly collecting data and intelligence and how they are seemingly using loopholes to get around that? What changes are you making within your department to ensure that they are held to the highest standards of privacy and transparency, which NSIRA itself has said are issues?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, I work very closely with CSE and have in other portfolios as well. Their legal mandate and their authorities do not allow them to intercept the communications of Canadians here in Canada. There may be some circumstances—because people are quite mobile—in which their communications may be subject to signals interception outside of Canada.

We are very fortunate that the structure currently in place through NSIRA performs a very important review function, as does NSICOP. We've recently established another oversight body within the government, the National Security Council. Also, I'm very regularly updated on the actions of CSIS and the work they do. I can only share with you that it's very clear to me when I speak to the chief and all of her staff that they're very mindful of the legal constraints on their operations. My experience has been that they're very rigorous in their adherence to those legal requirements.

If NSIRA had concerns, I would happily look at them, but such has not been consistent with my experience.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

That's an extraordinarily difficult question to answer in two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Then give me more time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Get more votes.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mrs. Gallant, you have five minutes, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Minister, have protocols been put in place to ensure that all evidence is transferred to the investigating police force, without exception or redactions, when a sexual assault case is referred to the civilian courts?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

What I have made clear, first of all, is that all these cases are to be transferred to the police of jurisdiction. I will also tell you that in order to give that effect, I've been working very closely with the solicitors general right across the country, but particularly here in Ontario, to make sure that the police are able to conduct these investigations and receive that information very quickly.

There is a real challenge as we move through the legislation, which I believe is required in order to change the way those investigations are to be conducted so they're exclusively done by the police of jurisdiction and the civilian policing system in our provinces, as well as prosecuted within the civilian justice system. That is going to require legislative changes. I hope to bring that forward, but—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Would you please provide the committee with a written outline of the protocol that will happen? There are existing cases being transferred to the civilian court and they aren't getting the information they know was put into evidence.

Next, it's not just ATIPs but grievances that are not being responded to. We had a situation where a whole pod of women had a senior officer come into their pod at night—that's what it's called in Saint-Jean for basic training—and grope them from time to time. A complaint was put forward by more than one woman, yet when one of the complainants went to the commanding officer, who was a female, and said, “We haven't received any reports. What's being done about this?” the commanding officer said, “There have been no reports made.”

They grieved the process and there was still no response. Eventually, the chief griever was thrown out of the military—no, she wasn't thrown out. She kept being failed in her nursing course and then saw the writing on the wall that she was never going to get through this endless loop. She left the military, but worst of all, all she wants after serving on and off for 10 years as a nurse is her veterans card.

That being said, why is it that grievances aren't going forth and being acted upon?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, I don't know the particulars of that case. However, the circumstances you described are completely unacceptable. That's not merely a work-related grievance, although it could form a grievance. That's one of the options that might be available to a member.

What you've described is a crime. It needs to be dealt with more appropriately. It's one of the reasons we have undertaken to implement all of the recommendations of Madam Justice Arbour. It's one of the reasons that in the coming few weeks, I'll be bringing forward legislation and coming back to this committee.

Those circumstances you described should never be dealt with in that way, and no one should be left that unsupported.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

On the part about transparency, a number of soldiers who were training Iraqis in theatre reported up the chain of command that they were being shown videos. These weren't something they got off YouTube. These were given to the soldiers and shown as trophies, and they were required to train the perpetrators.

According to the laws of armed conflict, they're not supposed to be training terrorists or rapists on how to be more effective at their jobs, so they put a report in and sent it up the chain of command, but didn't receive any word back for years. Now we know that some of this is still going on, because subsequent rotations are experiencing the same thing.

What are the processes and reporting procedure? At what point does it get up to the Prime Minister's Office? It goes from the commanding officer in theatre from where to where to where until it gets to you.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

The matter you're referring to began, I believe, in 2017. I don't believe that information was entirely dealt with in an appropriate way in 2017.

The matter was brought forward again for review in 2021. At that time, the then chief of the defence staff took a number of important actions to have the matter reviewed. There were also some orders issued both by the minister in a ministerial directive and by the then chief of the defence staff to ensure that it would be dealt with more appropriately in the future.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

We were investigating the sexual misconduct of generals. It's very difficult to find, especially when it reaches the highest general in the land. The time came for the renewal of his term—not General Eyre, but one of his predecessors—and at some point, the Prime Minister had to have been officially told.

At what point would you find out, as minister, of an allegation at this level? What would you do about it if and when you had such a report?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Be very brief, please.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, you're dealing with a hypothetical. I do not have any information on what transpired previously.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

But you would.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Information of misconduct needs to be dealt with, and it needs to be dealt with in a thorough way.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, if I'm not here when this report is titled, would you please call it “Not Their First Rodeo”?